Biden catch-all | Final Farewells

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Asia uses more coal that the world did 10 years ago. Seems we are wasting our time and money fighting climate change while giving them our manufacturing on a silver platter which increases their coal consumption.
 
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China in particular has some serious pollution issues that, along with population issues concerning sex and age, is going to cost them dearly. They did knowingly with fossil fuels and strip mining, etc. what the West did unknowingly as their best chance to get on a competitive footing with us before the rest of the world came to a consensus on climate change. It's worked for now but they haven't gotten the final bill.
 
I do think him pushing back on Biden calling it a political prosecution is pretty baller. I think Biden really took a chunk out of his historical legacy with the pardon and I would have done the exact same thing for my kid.
 
finesse said:
China in particular has some serious pollution issues that, along with population issues concerning sex and age, is going to cost them dearly. They did knowingly with fossil fuels and strip mining, etc. what the West did unknowingly as their best chance to get on a competitive footing with us before the rest of the world came to a consensus on climate change. It's worked for now but they haven't gotten the final bill.
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Their rush to EV was in part due to the need to move the pollution out of the cities to the countryside where the coal plants are
 
chrissteel said:
Asia uses more coal that the world did 10 years ago. Seems we are wasting our time and money fighting climate change while giving them our manufacturing on a silver platter which increases their coal consumption.
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Don't know that we gave them anything

Manufacturing moves to where the cost to produce is the lowest. Always has and it always will.
 
evrheel said:
Don't know that we gave them anything

Manufacturing moves to where the cost to produce is the lowest. Always has and it always will.
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And the cost of power is a big part of today's high tech manufacturing cost.

Also we had the data wrong for years:

www.yahoo.com

The epic mistake about manufacturing that’s cost Americans millions of jobs

Looking back, there were two kinds of people who lived in America in 2016: people who believed Donald Trump, and people who believed data. Trump claimed on the campaign trail that globalization had destroyed US manufacturing—and in the process, the American economy—by letting China and other...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
lawtig02 said:
The gas price thing is infuriating. We're below historic norms right now, especially with normal inflation adjustments. In a truly free market, gas would be WAY more expensive than it is right now.
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I have not follow this thread much, just wondering what about the gasoline market is not "truly free"

OPEC?
 
chrissteel said:
I have not follow this thread much, just wondering what about the gasoline market is not "truly free"

OPEC?
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www.imf.org

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change
www.imf.org

Fossil-fuel subsidies surged to a record $7 trillion last year as governments supported consumers and businesses during the global spike in energy prices caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the economic recovery from the pandemic.

As the world struggles to restrict global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius and parts of Asia, Europe and the United States swelter in extreme heat, subsidies for oil, coal and natural gas are costing the equivalent of 7.1 percent of global gross domestic product. That’s more than governments spend annually on education (4.3 percent of global income) and about two thirds of what they spend on healthcare (10.9 percent).
 
If you look at the underlying data of that study you see most of it is underpricing. These are some examples of things we don't normally call subsidies here and very little about gasoline here in the us which was what i thought we were talking about.

Differences between efficient prices and retail prices for fossil fuels are large and pervasive across fuels, but especially for coal. Globally, 80 percent of coal consumption was priced at below half of its efficient level in 2022.
▪ Underpricing for local air pollution and global warming account for nearly 60 percent of global fossil fuel subsidies and underpricing for supply costs and transportation externalities (such as congestion) explain another 35 percent (the remainder is accounted for by forgone consumption tax revenue).
▪ By fuel product, undercharging for oil products accounts for nearly half the subsidy, coal another 30 percent, and natural gas nearly 20 percent (underpricing for electricity accounts for the remainder).


www.imf.org

IMF Fossil Fuel Subsidies Data: 2023 Update

This paper provides a comprehensive global, regional, and country-level update of: (i) efficient fossil fuel prices to reflect supply and environmental costs; and (ii) subsidies implied by charging below efficient fuel prices. Globally, fossil fuel subsidies were $7 trillion in 2022 or 7.1...
www.imf.org

then download the pdf

I didn't dig into what is meant by entirely underpricing, i guess some countries like china set the retail price at whatever they want, i don't know. OPEC supply constraints keep gas high, so to me a true free market would see lower prices. Additionally our gasoline prices are also affected by things other than the world price of oil. Refining cost, transportation, etc. So there is very much a local supply and demand curve for gasoline
Every product made has some environmental cost which in this analysis is a subsidy. My post here has a subsidy for the power i am using. We can't control what other countries do either

I do like their recommendation of a carbon tax however. Get rid of all the other gov. regs for cars and add a $1 a gallon gas tax and be done with it.
 
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chrissteel said:
If you look at the underlying data of that study you see most of it is underpricing. These are some examples of things we don't normally call subsidies here and very little about gasoline here in the us which was what i thought we were talking about.

Differences between efficient prices and retail prices for fossil fuels are large and pervasive across fuels, but especially for coal. Globally, 80 percent of coal consumption was priced at below half of its efficient level in 2022.
▪ Underpricing for local air pollution and global warming account for nearly 60 percent of global fossil fuel subsidies and underpricing for supply costs and transportation externalities (such as congestion) explain another 35 percent (the remainder is accounted for by forgone consumption tax revenue).
▪ By fuel product, undercharging for oil products accounts for nearly half the subsidy, coal another 30 percent, and natural gas nearly 20 percent (underpricing for electricity accounts for the remainder).


www.imf.org

IMF Fossil Fuel Subsidies Data: 2023 Update

This paper provides a comprehensive global, regional, and country-level update of: (i) efficient fossil fuel prices to reflect supply and environmental costs; and (ii) subsidies implied by charging below efficient fuel prices. Globally, fossil fuel subsidies were $7 trillion in 2022 or 7.1...
www.imf.org

then download the pdf

I didn't dig into what is meant by entirely underpricing, i guess some countries like china set the retail price at whatever they want, i don't know. OPEC supply constraints keep gas high, so to me a true free market would see lower prices. Additionally our gasoline prices are also affected by things other than the world price of oil. Refining cost, transportation, etc. So there is very much a local supply and demand curve for gasoline
Every product made has some environmental cost which in this analysis is a subsidy. My post here has a subsidy for the power i am using. We can't control what other countries do either

I do like their recommendation of a carbon tax however. Get rid of all the other gov. regs for cars and add a $1 a gallon gas tax and be done with it.
Click to expand...
In China, the retail price of gas is set by the government, specifically the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), which adjusts prices based on international crude oil prices, meaning that when global oil prices rise, so do gas prices in China; essentially, the government sets the price at a national level, with adjustments made periodically to reflect market fluctuations.
 
According to the article above China underprices fossil fuels and that creates a giant subsidy. Which if eliminated would raise fossil fuel prices. Except it won't , as removing the underpricing would reduce demand and lower prices. Boy did i go down a rabbit hole
 
Does the US + Europe + Japan + S. Korea have the economic might to force China to adhere to climate change goals without destroying their own economies?
 
finesse said:
Too many of those countries have a higher per capita rate of pollution to take too strong of a stance.
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but they understand the need and can be led to the trough. Not sure without a lot of political and economic pressure china would ever fall in line. If china did, India would by default.
 
Not sure what you expect from India. They have 4 times our population and only produce about 60% of the CO2 the US does. They have alittle more than a fifth of China's with more people.
 
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