Hubert Davis and politics

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stankeylegjones said:
That’s an odd response. It’s clear that you have developed a theory about it, why else would you make assertions then.
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It wasn't a theory. It was some ideas.

Maybe you've missed it all this time, but this is what I do. I don't stake out a position and then try to defend it at all costs. Sometimes I can easily defend it because I'm the most knowledgeable person here (or one of them) about a topic. Sometimes there are other posters who know more, can provide facts to bolster their position and undermine my position. If those facts are persuasive, then I do what every reasonable person should do: I revise my views. Or, if I'm not interested in revising them for whatever reason, I back away.

I couldn't argue with SnoopRob's exposition. So I chose not to fight. It's sort of sad that you think it's "an odd response." In my mind, at least, I'm just doing what everyone should be doing all the time. There is no law that requires us to stake out positions we can't defend, and then try to defend them anyway and go down swinging at shadows.
 
superrific said:
It wasn't a theory. It was some ideas.

Maybe you've missed it all this time, but this is what I do. I don't stake out a position and then try to defend it at all costs. Sometimes I can easily defend it because I'm the most knowledgeable person here (or one of them) about a topic. Sometimes there are other posters who know more, can provide facts to bolster their position and undermine my position. If those facts are persuasive, then I do what every reasonable person should do: I revise my views. Or, if I'm not interested in revising them for whatever reason, I back away.

I couldn't argue with SnoopRob's exposition. So I chose not to fight. It's sort of sad that you think it's "an odd response." In my mind, at least, I'm just doing what everyone should be doing all the time. There is no law that requires us to stake out positions we can't defend, and then try to defend them anyway and go down swinging at shadows.
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There’s nothing wrong with revising your views, it’s a good thing to be able to do. And I agree, more folks should do the same.

I thought your response was odd because I don’t know folks who get into a discussion and offer their opinions, when they aren’t educated on the topic being discussed. Thank you for pointing out that you will do this from time to time, because you are right, I didn’t know that you do it.

By the way, did you see the lectures on general relativity that posted several days ago? I know that you were saying how much more you enjoyed quantum physics to relativity, but these might change your mind on that :).
 
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Race hadn't popped into the hire/keep/fire equation for me at all. In fact the OP just inserted race into the matter when questioning how the nation would feel about UNC firing their first A.A. Coach.

I think we should do what is right for the program long-term without any regard for what racists want or for what national nit-picks and pundits want.
 
SnoopRob said:
I do anticipate significant issues with discontent from former players, especially those who were at Carolina while HD has been on staff here.
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I don't think that's entirely fair...you're sort of suggesting that former players base their opinions entirely on personal loyalty, to the point of disregarding other factors.

I think it's better to recognize that players - good ones anyways - take personal responsibility for their play, and refuse to blame their coaches for it. This comes up all the time on IC, where you have fans blaming the coach for the poor play of the players, and our former players stepping up and going, "No, those dudes need to take some responsibility here."

I think it's way more a matter of the psychology of high major athletes vs. the psychology of couch potato sports fans with ego investments in the gear they wear out in public. Can you imagine actually recruiting the latter, a bunch of dudes who blame the coaches when they shoot 18% from 3?
 
The problem as I see it is deluded people thinking the Carolina “standard” or ACC “standard” or even the NCAA at large are things that they even know how to define anymore.

Covid, the extra eligibility covid-year, transfers and portal madness, Dawson Garcia family stuff, GG Jackson and reclassifications left and right, and oh by the way, NIL… and dozens of other things I’m forgetting that complicate todays landscape way, way more than even 5 years ago, much less 20, 30 — which you guys are holding things up against in comparison. Conferences are disappearing and/or being held together by tape and glue… yet to you guys, a head coach with a loooong basketball resume of having studied under coaches from Dean Smith to Pat Riley to Jeff Van Gundy to Don Nelson to Rick Carlisle to Larry Brown to Roy Williams… to you guys in your infinite wisdom, you believe wholeheartedly that this coach who has delivered a near-miss national runner-up that eternally tarnished K’s legacy in the rivalry, and then an ACC title and Sweet 16 run as a #1 seed… since he may miss the tourney 3 of those other years, in your unassailable wisdom and understanding of the “standard,” whatever the hell that even means now, you believe that he should be fired because he is not up to standard.

The arrogance is astonishing. The arrogance of calling Roy a “nepotist” and saying HD is “no different than an unqualified HS grad taking over daddy’s factory” (you know who you are). Your old glory days ain’t coming back, ever. New glory days may come, but not if guided by emotional decisions and tantrums that don’t properly estimate successes vs failures, ALL the extenuating circumstances, and the tangible moves already in motion toward changes in the program (GM, for one).

As I’ve said before, things can get a *whole* lot worse than they’ve been the last 4-5 seasons. Fire HD and lose that continuity as he’s working his way through this bananas new landscape, and see what you get. See who you get. Nate Oates! Nate Oates! All of a sudden he’s John Wooden to some of you, same ones who were ride or die with Wes. I love Wes, but he hasn’t made the tourney in his 4 years at Cinci and is also struggling big time in this landscape. Finished 11th and 12th in the Big 12 last two seasons. I don’t hear his name around here much lately, now it’s Nate Oates who’s the savior, apparently.

Come up empty on a top option or two (whoever that even means now, none of you seems to know) and start scraping around the barrel and then drop them into this pressure cooker and you’ll find out just how bad things can get.

Bunch of spoiled brats.
 
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duluoz said:
The problem as I see it is deluded people thinking the Carolina “standard” or ACC “standard” or even the NCAA at large are things that they even know how to define anymore.

Covid, the extra eligibility covid-year, transfers and portal madness, Dawson Garcia family stuff, GG Jackson and reclassifications left and right, and oh by the way, NIL… and dozens of other things I’m forgetting that complicate todays landscape way, way more than even 5 years ago, much less 20, 30 — which you guys are holding things up against in comparison. Conferences are disappearing and/or being held together by tape and glue… yet to you guys, a head coach with a loooong basketball resume of having studied under coaches from Dean Smith to Pat Riley to Jeff Van Gundy to Don Nelson to Rick Carlisle to Larry Brown to Roy Williams… to you guys in your infinite wisdom, you believe wholeheartedly that this coach who has delivered a near-miss national runner-up that eternally tarnished K’s legacy in the rivalry, and then an ACC title and Sweet 16 run as a #1 seed… since he may miss the tourney 3 of those other years, in your unassailable wisdom and understanding of the “standard,” whatever the hell that even means now, you believe that he should be fired because he is not up to standard.

The arrogance is astonishing. The arrogance of calling Roy a “nepotist” and saying HD is “no different than an unqualified HS grad taking over daddy’s farm” (you know who you are). Your old glory days ain’t coming back, ever. New glory days may come, but not if guided by emotional decisions and tantrums that don’t properly estimate successes vs failures, ALL the extenuating circumstances, and the tangible moves already in motion toward changes in the program (GM, for one).

As I’ve said before, things can get a *whole* lot worse than they’ve been the last 4-5 seasons. Fire HD and lose that continuity as he’s working his way through this bananas new landscape, and see what you get. See who you get. Nate Oates! Nate Oates! All of a sudden he’s John Wooden to some of you, same ones who were ride or die with Wes. I love Wes, but he hasn’t made the tourney in his 4 years at Cinci and is also struggling big time in this landscape. Finished 11th and 12th in the Big 12 last two seasons. I don’t hear his name around here much lately, now it’s Nate Oates who’s the savior, apparently.

Come up empty on a top option or two (whoever that even means now, none of you seems to know) and start scraping around the barrel and then drop them into this pressure cooker and you’ll find out just how bad things can get.

Bunch of spoiled brats.
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The tourney run was great. Last season was good. But the fact is it's been one good season and 1/4 of a good season out of the last 4, and they could miss the tournament 2 out of 3 seasons. That's not good, and other programs have been able to be more consistent the last four seasons than Carolina. Somehow other programs have been able to figure things out. Maybe the GM is the answer. Maybe they will be able to get elite NBA level talent and it won't matter about if Hubert is a good coach or not. I hope it gets better, but if next year isn't better then I don't see how they can keep Hubert as coach.
 
There is absolutely no evidence that a different coach would have produced better results given the same set of circumstances.

Those who think the issues are that obvious are looking for a simple solution to a complicated problem.
 
Bigs23 said:
There is absolutely no evidence that a different coach would have produced better results given the same set of circumstances.

Those who think the issues are that obvious are looking for a simple solution to a complicated problem.
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I am still mad
It's my birthright to have Carolina great lol
 
TarSpiel said:
I don't think that's entirely fair...you're sort of suggesting that former players base their opinions entirely on personal loyalty, to the point of disregarding other factors.

I think it's better to recognize that players - good ones anyways - take personal responsibility for their play, and refuse to blame their coaches for it. This comes up all the time on IC, where you have fans blaming the coach for the poor play of the players, and our former players stepping up and going, "No, those dudes need to take some responsibility here."

I think it's way more a matter of the psychology of high major athletes vs. the psychology of couch potato sports fans with ego investments in the gear they wear out in public. Can you imagine actually recruiting the latter, a bunch of dudes who blame the coaches when they shoot 18% from 3?
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I'm not saying that former players are basing their views entirely on personal loyalty, but I think we'd be silly to think that those who played under Hubert wouldn't have a personal attachment to him that would leave them more likely to both want him to be retained and to be upset if he's not. I also mention it because I've noticed something in the former players I've heard comment about the performance of the team in anything beyond very general terms...

I've heard Theo Pinson and Justin Jackson very much defend Hubert and Ray Felton do so with a softer style. (I believe there was one other player from Hubert's time on staff who also defended him, but I can't recall who it was so I'll leave it out.)

I've heard Tyler Hansbrough and, I believe, Vince Carter make statements that were more critical of where the program sits, although both were reasonably general about Hubert.

It stuck out to me that the divide there is largely those who played under Hubert and who did not (except for Ray, who shares a podcast with Theo & JJax).

I've also taken from comments made by former players that they take the "Carolina Family" very seriously and they have concerns about someone outside the family taking over the program.

In terms of former players putting the burden of playing well on the players, I've certainly heard that from Theo, JJax, & Ray. I agree that former players may very much see where players can improve rather than where coaches can do better. But it has certainly felt to me that there is a groundswell of support from Hubert among former players, especially those who played under him, and I wouldn't want to dismiss the impact moving on from him might have on those players. I expect those players would understand the need to publicly support the program, but based on the comments made by a few former players I wouldn't want to dismiss that some players may be upset if HD is relieved of his position.
 
stankeylegjones said:
There’s nothing wrong with revising your views, it’s a good thing to be able to do. And I agree, more folks should do the same.

I thought your response was odd because I don’t know folks who get into a discussion and offer their opinions, when they aren’t educated on the topic being discussed. Thank you for pointing out that you will do this from time to time, because you are right, I didn’t know that you do it.

By the way, did you see the lectures on general relativity that posted several days ago? I know that you were saying how much more you enjoyed quantum physics to relativity, but these might change your mind on that :).
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1. I did see them but I haven't had a chance to watch them yet. I will need to be in the right frame of mind.
2. I wasn't entirely uneducated about the topic. I mean, we are talking about the opinions of the UNC fan base. I was reading the message boards back then. I saw some of the vitriol and the debates. But I haven't been reading those boards at all the past couple of years; I certainly wasn't following them closely; and I don't interact with many Heels in real life. That means there are others who know more.
3. The only way to test an idea is to vocalize it and seek feedback. That's what message boards are for.
4. The extent to which I will put forth an idea I'm not confident in depends in part on the nature of the topic. If it's an "important" topic -- i.e. the fate of the constitution or the effect of a debt default -- I'm more likely to post only what I'm confident in. It's also the case that I tend to me more knowledgeable about those topics, so the greater confidence comes naturally.

By contrast, if the question is not really important in any grand scheme -- like if Hubert is the coach of UNC basketball or whether the Beatles are wonderful or overrated -- then I'm more willing to venture forth. All the time, though, I'm open to differing views and perfectly willing to revise my own where appropriate. I still can't stand listening to half the Beatles' catalogue and their lyrics are usually insipid.
 
superrific said:
1. I did see them but I haven't had a chance to watch them yet. I will need to be in the right frame of mind.
2. I wasn't entirely uneducated about the topic. I mean, we are talking about the opinions of the UNC fan base. I was reading the message boards back then. I saw some of the vitriol and the debates. But I haven't been reading those boards at all the past couple of years; I certainly wasn't following them closely; and I don't interact with many Heels in real life. That means there are others who know more.
3. The only way to test an idea is to vocalize it and seek feedback. That's what message boards are for.
4. The extent to which I will put forth an idea I'm not confident in depends in part on the nature of the topic. If it's an "important" topic -- i.e. the fate of the constitution or the effect of a debt default -- I'm more likely to post only what I'm confident in. It's also the case that I tend to me more knowledgeable about those topics, so the greater confidence comes naturally.

By contrast, if the question is not really important in any grand scheme -- like if Hubert is the coach of UNC basketball or whether the Beatles are wonderful or overrated -- then I'm more willing to venture forth. All the time, though, I'm open to differing views and perfectly willing to revise my own where appropriate. I still can't stand listening to half the Beatles' catalogue and their lyrics are usually insipid.
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Thanks for explaining in detail. I do agree with what you are saying here.

And, please let me know if/when you watch them. They do require a bit of an understanding of math beyond undergrad level, but, given your background, I think it will be at a level that you enjoy.
 
Where did the politucs go?
I used to work furniture factories as a kid (high school) and in upholstered furniture you gotta tuck the poly fiber in the cushions to make the corners pop out on the pillows.
Politucks
 
I can tell you that we had a coach who got us to the finals of the NCAA's and then we kept him waaaaaay too long. It really hurt our program long term.

Of course we would have loved to have Davis's success. He has been much better than Hewitt. But UNC expectations are going to be higher.
 
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