In my mid Life I was an actively engaged Christian

[mpaer]

Chapel Hill Episcopalian...I was in a variety of Study groups-mostly with curriculim shared by many in the USA ( one was called St Augustine I think), some hands on stuff -Prison Visitation for maybe 20 years-one two year group that led to a "diploma" from Swanananoa in Social Ministry (I think that was the name) and some run of the mill church work in deciding which non Profits got grants. Some of this involved folks from other denominations-some all Episcopal.

In all that time I never considered Hell or Heaven-or if I was "Saved". I never thought much about Jesus Christ as my Savior . Sometimes my incarcerated friends wanted to talk about this stuff and I would be friendly and encouraging.
Out of habit from my early Catholic days I would take communion -and it was the single act that was somehow "mystical' to me....
Now in the last ten years I have attended a lot of country funerals-GFs relatives mostly- and the graveside preaching screams of being saved, heaven and hell, blah blah Most of the preachers are some version of Baptist I guess ( not Dean Smith's Binkley Baptist church). Mostly Trumpsters for sure

I don't consider my past-present religous beliefs as being on the same planet as these folks-yet they say they are Christians

 

[dukeman92]

I do not believe in Heaven or Hell. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to be a good person, which I feel I am. If when I die I'm surprised by the existence of "God" and shunned because I used the free will he graced me with, then I don't want to be a part of his/her "Heaven"

 

[breepf]

Chapel Hill Episcopalian...I was in a variety of Study groups-mostly with curriculim shared by many in the USA ( one was called St Augustine I think), some hands on stuff -Prison Visitation for maybe 20 years-one two year group that led to a "diploma" from Swanananoa in Social Ministry (I think that was the name) and some run of the mill church work in deciding which non Profits got grants. Some of this involved folks from other denominations-some all Episcopal.

In all that time I never considered Hell or Heaven-or if I was "Saved". I never thought much about Jesus Christ as my Savior . Sometimes my incarcerated friends wanted to talk about this stuff and I would be friendly and encouraging.
Out of habit from my early Catholic days I would take communion -and it was the single act that was somehow "mystical' to me....
Now in the last ten years I have attended a lot of country funerals-GFs relatives mostly- and the graveside preaching screams of being saved, heaven and hell, blah blah Most of the preachers are some version of Baptist I guess ( not Dean Smith's Binkley Baptist church). Mostly Trumpsters for sure

I don't consider my past-present religous beliefs as being on the same planet as these folks-yet they say they are Christians

Liberal Christianity has been dying a slow death since the 1970s.

 

[finesse]

Liberal Christianity has been dying a slow death since the 1970s.

A quick take is that modern technology and science are driving all "true believers" to a by faith alone approach, regardless of the particular religion. I expect it's getting harder to be a liberal in any religion, other than a couple of the syncretic ones.

 

[OGtruthhurts]

I do not believe in Heaven or Hell. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to be a good person, which I feel I am. If when I die I'm surprised by the existence of "God" and shunned because I used the free will he graced me with, then I don't want to be a part of his/her "Heaven"

heaven and hell are here on earth. i've seen mothers holding their starving babies. i've seen entire families murdered all for the American CHristian greed machine. Its unfortunate that most Americans dont get to experience the hells on earth or else we would demand a stop to them.

 

[breepf]

A quick take is that modern technology and science are driving all "true believers" to a by faith alone approach, regardless of the particular religion. I expect it's getting harder to be a liberal in any religion, other than a couple of the syncretic ones.

Can you expound on this? I don't quite follow.

For instance, sola fides is exclusively a Christian thing.

 

[breepf]

heaven and hell are here on earth. i've seen mothers holding their starving babies. i've seen entire families murdered all for the American CHristian greed machine. Its unfortunate that most Americans dont get to experience the hells on earth or else we would demand a stop to them.

Honestly, I think this is a train of thought that owes much to liberal postmillenialism in the early 20th century, which is to say, to the continued ability to discern the workings of "sin" or the presence of "hell" in the world and to then subsequently argue that there's a Christian moral prerogative to reform such social ills.

 

[theel4life]

I am a Christian but don’t involve myself with organized religion.

 

[CFordUNC]

I’m a Christian and believe that God sent His son Jesus Christ to pay the ultimate price for my sins. I’d consider myself to be a person of faith but not of religiosity. I have very little time for religiosity, as a matter of fact, because I think that religiosity is little more than a bludgeon. I try to live my faith by being kind, generous, servile, loving, and accepting of all other people with whom I interact daily. Obviously, I fall far, far, far too short of that each and every single day (especially on this board!) but it’s my guiding principle and one toward which I’d like to continually strive.

I spend very, very little time in church. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church and grew to hate it- the constant judgment, the constant hellfire and brimstone, the constant hatred toward “the others.” As I’ve gotten older, I’ve had very little interest in sitting in a pew on Sunday beside people who will profess to love God, love Christ, and love people- but who will then Monday through Saturday with their lives and act in ways that are the complete opposite.

Getting a little bit older and now having moved back home to North Carolina, I would like to change my church-going habits, especially as we now have two little boys (ages 3 and 3 months) whom I’d like to have the opportunity to grow up in a community of people who strive toward the above faith and guiding principles I mentioned. We live relatively close to my in-laws and I have always enjoyed going to their United Methodist Church when we would visit, which I find to be very progressive in its views, teachings, and interpretation of the Bible.

My view of “heaven” and “hell” is that the way that it has been traditionally taught and understood by so many different Christian denominations, is not accurate. I believe that it has been used as a carrot and a stick- much more often as a stick- as a means of controlling the masses. I don’t believe that we have to wait to die to go to heaven- I believe that heaven can be right here and right now here on this earth, and in fact I believe that Jesus commands us to make heaven right here on earth through our treatment of other people. I also don’t believe that “hell” is the like a fire and brimstone and eternal damnation and torment as was taught in my southern Baptist upbringing. I believe that hell is permanent separation from God and from His love and from His kingdom.

Personally, I do not believe one can be a Christian and also mistreat the immigrant, or the LGBTQ person, or the sick, or the homeless, etc. That’s primarily why I left the Republican Party- because fundamentally I believe that the way that the Republican Party treats each of the above is wholly disqualifying.

 

[breepf]

I’m a Christian and believe that God sent His son Jesus Christ to pay the ultimate price for my sins. I’d consider myself to be a person of faith but not of religiosity. I have very little time for religiosity, as a matter of fact, because I think that religiosity is little more than a bludgeon. I try to live my faith by being kind, generous, servile, loving, and accepting of all other people with whom I interact daily. Obviously, I fall far, far, far too short of that each and every single day (especially on this board!) but it’s my guiding principle and one toward which I’d like to continually strive.

I spend very, very little time in church. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church and grew to hate it- the constant judgment, the constant hellfire and brimstone, the constant hatred toward “the others.” As I’ve gotten older, I’ve had very little interest in sitting in a pew on Sunday beside people who will profess to love God, love Christ, and love people- but who will then Monday through Saturday with their lives and act in ways that are the complete opposite.

Getting a little bit older and now having moved back home to North Carolina, I would like to change my church-going habits, especially as we now have two little boys (ages 3 and 3 months) whom I’d like to have the opportunity to grow up in a community of people who strive toward the above faith and guiding principles I mentioned. We live relatively close to my in-laws and I have always enjoyed going to their United Methodist Church when we would visit, which I find to be very progressive in its views, teachings, and interpretation of the Bible.

My view of “heaven” and “hell” is that the way that it has been traditionally taught and understood by so many different Christian denominations, is not accurate. I believe that it has been used as a carrot and a stick- much more often as a stick- as a means of controlling the masses. I don’t believe that we have to wait to die to go to heaven- I believe that heaven can be right here and right now here on this earth, and in fact I believe that Jesus commands us to make heaven right here on earth through our treatment of other people. I also don’t believe that “hell” is the like a fire and brimstone and eternal damnation and torment as was taught in my southern Baptist upbringing. I believe that hell is permanent separation from God and from His love and from His kingdom.

Just curious about the metaphor that you're employing here. Can you elaborate on the mechanism(s) whereby you owe a debt (which the word "price" suggests to me) and/or whereby Jesus's death repays that debt?

 

[CFordUNC]

Just curious about the metaphor that you're employing here. Can you elaborate on the mechanism(s) whereby you owe a debt (which the word "price" suggests to me) and/or whereby Jesus's death repays that debt?

Great question. Thanks a ton for asking and I apologize in advance for doing what I know is going to be a spectacularly poor job of articulating it.

I believe that I am a sinner who falls well short at almost all times in my life of the manner in which I am called to live by God. I believe that I am called to be unconditionally loving, accepting, kind, generous, and non-judgmental of other people. I fall way short of each and every single one of those every day, but I believe that because Jesus Christ lived the perfect, sin-free life that I am inherently incapable of living, His death on the cross and His descent into hell (which I believe is permanent separation from God’s love and grace) paid the price that I owe for my sins and transgressions.

I am sure I did a horrible job explaining that!

 

[mpaer]

Great question. Thanks a ton for asking and I apologize in advance for doing what I know is going to be a spectacularly poor job of articulating it.

I believe that I am a sinner who falls well short at almost all times in my life of the manner in which I am called to live by God. I believe that I am called to be unconditionally loving, accepting, kind, generous, and non-judgmental of other people. I fall way short of each and every single one of those every day, but I believe that because Jesus Christ lived the perfect, sin-free life that I am inherently incapable of living, His death on the cross and His descent into hell (which I believe is permanent separation from God’s love and grace) paid the price that I owe for my sins and transgressions.

I am sure I did a horrible job explaining that!

Question for you-and this a serious not snotty question!
Most humans on earth are not Christians-lots-maybe most?-have some other religous belief-worship another God(s ).
Are they "covered" . Did Christ die for them also ?

 

[finesse]

Can you expound on this? I don't quite follow.

For instance, sola fides is exclusively a Christian thing.

It's not even clearly a Christian thing according to James, the brother of Jesus.



Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24 and there is a similar theme throughout the book. You're confusing Paul and John Calvin with Christianity.

 

[CFordUNC]

Question for you-and this a serious not snotty question!
Most humans on earth are not Christians-lots-maybe most?-have some other religous belief-worship another God(s ).
Are they "covered" . Did Christ die for them also ?

That’s a really really dang good question to which I absolutely have no good answer, other than to say I believe that Christ did die for those folks just as much as he died for me, and that those people are fully covered by God’s love and grace.

 

[TarSpiel]

Chapel Hill Episcopalian...I was in a variety of Study groups-mostly with curriculim shared by many in the USA ( one was called St Augustine I think), some hands on stuff -Prison Visitation for maybe 20 years-one two year group that led to a "diploma" from Swanananoa in Social Ministry (I think that was the name) and some run of the mill church work in deciding which non Profits got grants. Some of this involved folks from other denominations-some all Episcopal.

In all that time I never considered Hell or Heaven-or if I was "Saved". I never thought much about Jesus Christ as my Savior . Sometimes my incarcerated friends wanted to talk about this stuff and I would be friendly and encouraging.
Out of habit from my early Catholic days I would take communion -and it was the single act that was somehow "mystical' to me....
Now in the last ten years I have attended a lot of country funerals-GFs relatives mostly- and the graveside preaching screams of being saved, heaven and hell, blah blah Most of the preachers are some version of Baptist I guess ( not Dean Smith's Binkley Baptist church). Mostly Trumpsters for sure

I don't consider my past-present religous beliefs as being on the same planet as these folks-yet they say they are Christians

Episcopalians are some of the good ones.

I've had good experiences with Congregationalists & Presbyterian USA churches. Most black churches too. Methodists don't really hyperventilate about anything either, as far as I've been able to tell.

I think the whole sectarian part of the tradition is falling apart, so now it seems like more a matter of finding a decent group of people who are focused on what the Bible actually teaches about unconditional love and providing materially for those on the margins of society, as opposed to these whackos outraged by the political story d'jour who want to look at everyone's genitalia with a magnifying glass.

 

[mpaer]

That’s a really really dang good question to which I absolutely have no good answer, other than to say I believe that Christ did die for those folks just as much as he died for me, and that those people are fully covered by God’s love and grace.

I have two grandsons being brought up Jewish . One will have his Bar mitzvah next year
I have no doubt he will have adequate opportunity to know "how to act" as he matures
( I will at some point remind him he was Baptized in the Chapel of the Cross Espicopal Church-lol)

 

[breepf]

Question for you-and this a serious not snotty question!
Most humans on earth are not Christians-lots-maybe most?-have some other religous belief-worship another God(s ).
Are they "covered" . Did Christ die for them also ?

What's crazy--but perfectly sensible from a Calvinist perspective--is that the answer is 'no.' Election is unconditional and atonement is limited--Christ only died for the people whom God had already chosen to save.

 

[breepf]

It's not even clearly a Christian thing according to James, the brother of Jesus.



Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24 and there is a similar theme throughout the book. You're confusing Paul and John Calvin with Christianity.

Except that the idea of "faith alone" misrepresents Paul too.

Anyways, my real point of inquiry was that faith as a starting premise is a problem mostly for Christians and much less so for Jews, and much much less so for anybody following any other religion.

 

[finesse]

Except that the idea of "faith alone" misrepresents Paul too.

Anyways, my real point of inquiry was that faith as a starting premise is a problem mostly for Christians and much less so for Jews, and much much less so for anybody following any other religion.

I suspect Islam, at least, would strongly disagree.

 

[breepf]

Great question. Thanks a ton for asking and I apologize in advance for doing what I know is going to be a spectacularly poor job of articulating it.

I believe that I am a sinner who falls well short at almost all times in my life of the manner in which I am called to live by God. I believe that I am called to be unconditionally loving, accepting, kind, generous, and non-judgmental of other people. I fall way short of each and every single one of those every day, but I believe that because Jesus Christ lived the perfect, sin-free life that I am inherently incapable of living, His death on the cross and His descent into hell (which I believe is permanent separation from God’s love and grace) paid the price that I owe for my sins and transgressions.

I am sure I did a horrible job explaining that!

FWIW, and as far as I can tell, this is a (pleasantly liberal) take on penal substitionary atonement, the prevailing (modern and Protestant) theory of atonement. While I think it's come under some criticism lately, you might check of Gustaf Aulen's book Christus Victor, which is the (short and) classic account of different historical theories of Christian atonement.