Is it time for another Reformation?

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finesse

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We've had threads on old Christians, non Maga Christians, liberal theology, liberal coalitions and such but can outsiders actually get traction in this debate? Doesn't this have to be a discussion among Christians about Christianity? It seems that ecumenicalism has been preached so much ( a principle I support in theory) by moderates and liberals that there is a reflexive defensive reaction by the majority of Christians to the criticism of any doctrine, no matter how extreme, by any Christian. Even when some of those come around, the criticism is blunted and marginalized. Is risking a larger schism not worth defending it in support of more closely following the teachings of Jesus?

Yeah, I know. By my own logic, I have no standing to make this post.
 
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I have no standing , not a particularly large set of information But I did not know until recently that some the "new churches" that have popped up the last several years are not Tammy Faye type churches-but folks grounded in traditional Protestant Churhes that reject their "mother church standings on things like Gay marriage' They seem to embrace Chistian principals and reject long standing "respected" Christian institutions -Methodists as an example. The "liberals" have left
With Episcopalians it was kind of opposite but a similar split The Gay bashing group left and started their own "anglican" congregations.
I am still baffled at the Catholics I grew up Catholic-my mother-a yellow dog liberal-was true to her Catholic faith until she died-despite understanding they were eating themselves alive with their stand on Women/sex etc
 
mpaer said:
I have no standing , not a particularly large set of information But I did not know until recently that some the "new churches" that have popped up the last several years are not Tammy Faye type churches-but folks grounded in traditional Protestant Churhes that reject their "mother church standings on things like Gay marriage' They seem to embrace Chistian principals and reject long standing "respected" Christian institutions -Methodists as an example. The "liberals" have left
With Episcopalians it was kind of opposite but a similar split The Gay bashing group left and started their own "anglican" congregations.
I am still baffled at the Catholics I grew up Catholic-my mother-a yellow dog liberal-was true to her Catholic faith until she died-despite understanding they were eating themselves alive with their stand on Women/sex etc
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Sadly, what I see every time a "new church" pops up, is an evangelical Baptist church in hiding. Kinda reminds me of the Savings and Loan disaster, when they changed their names to hide their identify. Same thing with churches. But if you look at what they believe, or listen to what they preach, it's old school literalism hidden by snare drums, a cool dude on base and a lead pastor in bedazzled jeans.

I wish something would happen like finesse is getting at: another reformation. I'd have it grounded in universalism.
 
Most of the "new" non-denominational churches are just high tech entertainment venues. Ain't no real church going on in them.
 
sleehrat1955 said:
Most of the "new" non-denominational churches are just high tech entertainment venues. Ain't no real church going on in them.
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You may be correct . Maybe thats part of the new reformation...Some , many of these Churches have active "do good" work-prison Ministry, food banks ???
 
My faith in Grace, not THE LAW has caused me to stop going to church at all. Wife and I attended a pop-up church: Transformation Church In Indian Land SC based on the idea of multi ethnic, multi generational worship. But when I found out there are guns in the congregation I refused to attend or support. Also they donate to Samaritan's Purse. They do have gays attending but preach against gay marriage.
Anyways I can not attend or support a group that considers greed less a sin than any other is not something I can abide.

mpaer this is "a active "do good" work-prison Ministry, food banks"
 
4heels4evr said:
My faith in Grace, not THE LAW has caused me to stop going to church at all. Wife and I attended a pop-up church: Transformation Church In Indian Land SC based on the idea of multi ethnic, multi generational worship. But when I found out there are guns in the congregation I refused to attend or support. Also they donate to Samaritan's Purse. They do have gays attending but preach against gay marriage.
Anyways I can not attend or support a group that considers greed less a sin than any other is not something I can abide.

mpaer this is "a active "do good" work-prison Ministry, food banks"
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I hear you Good points There a lot of Pop up churches like you describe I would add Rural-Urban divide?
 
I think it’s amazing that in 2024 so many people still believe in that stuff, and sadly people believe it to an extent that it impacts politics and government.

I was raised in a liberal Episcopalian church. My dad has ways been very active in the church, which allowed me to get to know the clergy members who have been there through the years. They have all been really good people who I always liked. And the church has long been very active in charitable giving and has done many good things. Still, once I developed critical thinking skills, I could no longer buy in.

As a kid, I totally believed because adults told me that’s how it was and of course, as a kid, I was going to believe what adults tell me. In addition, in the time and place I was growing up, everyone around me pretty much believed the same thing, so it was just the way it was. But by the time I became a teenager, I began to question it all. Frankly, it all defied basic common sense and logic.

Still, for a number of years, I was hesitant to say I was an atheist. I would instead refer to myself as an agnostic if people asked. But I have been an atheist for quite some time. It is unfortunate that in a society where religion, particularly Christianity, is so frequently forced upon us— including those of us who don’t want it in our lives— just stating that we are atheist can offend those who presume we buy into the their religious beliefs.

Raising kids has been interesting with regard to religion. If it were up to me, religion would not be part of their lives. But my wife is Jewish. And for many Jewish people, it’s very important that their children have a Jewish identity. So our kids attend Hebrew school and are essentially being raised Jewish. And I get why my wife wants that. Her great grandparents and great great grandparents escaped persecution for their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. Many of her other relatives were killed in the Holocaust due to their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. So I totally get why she wants to preserve that identity through generations, and I’m totally cool with that. For me personally, what I hope my kids ultimately get out of it when they are old enough to truly think for themselves is that they have a Jewish identity and that the biblical stories are fantasy.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I think it’s amazing that in 2024 so many people still believe in that stuff, and sadly people believe it to an extent that it impacts politics and government.

I was raised in a liberal Episcopalian church. My dad has ways been very active in the church, which allowed me to get to know the clergy members who have been there through the years. They have all been really good people who I always liked. And the church has long been very active in charitable giving and has done many good things. Still, once I developed critical thinking skills, I could no longer buy in.

As a kid, I totally believed because adults told me that’s how it was and of course, as a kid, I was going to believe what adults tell me. In addition, in the time and place I was growing up, everyone around me pretty much believed the same thing, so it was just the way it was. But by the time I became a teenager, I began to question it all. Frankly, it all defied basic common sense and logic.

Still, for a number of years, I was hesitant to say I was an atheist. I would instead refer to myself as an agnostic if people asked. But I have been an atheist for quite some time. It is unfortunate that in a society where religion, particularly Christianity, is so frequently forced upon us— including those of us who don’t want it in our lives— just stating that we are atheist can offend those who presume we buy into the their religious beliefs.

Raising kids has been interesting with regard to religion. If it were up to me, religion would not be part of their lives. But my wife is Jewish. And for many Jewish people, it’s very important that their children have a Jewish identity. So our kids attend Hebrew school and are essentially being raised Jewish. And I get why my wife wants that. Her great grandparents and great great grandparents escaped persecution for their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. Many of her other relatives were killed in the Holocaust due to their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. So I totally get why she wants to preserve that identity through generations, and I’m totally cool with that. For me personally, what I hope my kids ultimately get out of it when they are old enough to truly think for themselves is that they have a Jewish identity and that the biblical stories are fantasy.
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Your first 4 paragraphs are me exactly. It’s incredible how many people suspend basic critical thinking for only this one area of their lives. Blows my mind this many people are still getting duped.
 
I'm less concerned about them believing than I am what face they want to put on Christianity. I grew up in a devout family and my personal morals are still strongly aligned that way. Since my family was from the more liberal branch of the Southern Baptist like Robert Seymour and W.W. Finlator, I didn't even have to change much on social issues. In fact, that is part of my concern. The face modern Christians are presenting to the world is not one from the Bible I read and what learned from my family. Those are ways and rules of living with your fellow man that are worth saving for themselves despite what you believe about the source. As an agnostic, I can't demand accountability but I feel like someone should.
 
I agree with the basic idea that we need a viable religious left, particularly for white people, and if only to model non-shitty forms of collective action and belonging.

I would add, at the risk of stating the obvious, that you can never have another Reformation. For Luther, the religious idiom was so fundamental to articulating social, political, and cultural concerns that we lose sight of those factors and typically just regard him as engaging in some grand act of conscience. But in any modern "reformation," what will stick out to us--and to the religious right--will be its political, social, and cultural motivations.
 
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Icky Mettle said:
I think it’s amazing that in 2024 so many people still believe in that stuff, and sadly people believe it to an extent that it impacts politics and government.

I was raised in a liberal Episcopalian church. My dad has ways been very active in the church, which allowed me to get to know the clergy members who have been there through the years. They have all been really good people who I always liked. And the church has long been very active in charitable giving and has done many good things. Still, once I developed critical thinking skills, I could no longer buy in.

As a kid, I totally believed because adults told me that’s how it was and of course, as a kid, I was going to believe what adults tell me. In addition, in the time and place I was growing up, everyone around me pretty much believed the same thing, so it was just the way it was. But by the time I became a teenager, I began to question it all. Frankly, it all defied basic common sense and logic.

Still, for a number of years, I was hesitant to say I was an atheist. I would instead refer to myself as an agnostic if people asked. But I have been an atheist for quite some time. It is unfortunate that in a society where religion, particularly Christianity, is so frequently forced upon us— including those of us who don’t want it in our lives— just stating that we are atheist can offend those who presume we buy into the their religious beliefs.

Raising kids has been interesting with regard to religion. If it were up to me, religion would not be part of their lives. But my wife is Jewish. And for many Jewish people, it’s very important that their children have a Jewish identity. So our kids attend Hebrew school and are essentially being raised Jewish. And I get why my wife wants that. Her great grandparents and great great grandparents escaped persecution for their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. Many of her other relatives were killed in the Holocaust due to their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. So I totally get why she wants to preserve that identity through generations, and I’m totally cool with that. For me personally, what I hope my kids ultimately get out of it when they are old enough to truly think for themselves is that they have a Jewish identity and that the biblical stories are fantasy.
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Same boat as you. I'm married to a Jewish woman. We are raising our kids Jewish--I was initially reluctant, but not anymore.

Compared to Christianity, I think Judaism--in particular, Reform--has the distinct advantage of being almost completely non-doctrinal. It's also escapes what I think are the awful sin/forgiveness dynamics of Christianity. And without that stuff, it can accommodate filthy atheists such as myself. Hell, I teach kids at Hebrew school on Sundays and organize synagogue activities. When my young kids ask, I tell them that the Hebrew Bible is a collection of tall tales, make-believe, and myth. (And prayers too).

My wife and I exclusively emphasize the familial and communal qualities of Jewish observance, which I think are--or can be--valuable.
 
4heels4evr said:
My faith in Grace, not THE LAW has caused me to stop going to church at all. Wife and I attended a pop-up church: Transformation Church In Indian Land SC based on the idea of multi ethnic, multi generational worship. But when I found out there are guns in the congregation I refused to attend or support. Also they donate to Samaritan's Purse. They do have gays attending but preach against gay marriage.
Anyways I can not attend or support a group that considers greed less a sin than any other is not something I can abide.

mpaer this is "a active "do good" work-prison Ministry, food banks"
Click to expand...
My wife stopped going to church a few years ago because of the almost universal white Evangelical support for Trump. She recognizes who he is and how his behaviors and words are irreconcilable with the basic tenets of Christianity. She still keeps in touch with a few select believers in the Church who are of the same mind as her and practices her faith privately. She just couldn't indulge the Church's hypocrisy any longer.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I think it’s amazing that in 2024 so many people still believe in that stuff, and sadly people believe it to an extent that it impacts politics and government.

I was raised in a liberal Episcopalian church. My dad has ways been very active in the church, which allowed me to get to know the clergy members who have been there through the years. They have all been really good people who I always liked. And the church has long been very active in charitable giving and has done many good things. Still, once I developed critical thinking skills, I could no longer buy in.

As a kid, I totally believed because adults told me that’s how it was and of course, as a kid, I was going to believe what adults tell me. In addition, in the time and place I was growing up, everyone around me pretty much believed the same thing, so it was just the way it was. But by the time I became a teenager, I began to question it all. Frankly, it all defied basic common sense and logic.

Still, for a number of years, I was hesitant to say I was an atheist. I would instead refer to myself as an agnostic if people asked. But I have been an atheist for quite some time. It is unfortunate that in a society where religion, particularly Christianity, is so frequently forced upon us— including those of us who don’t want it in our lives— just stating that we are atheist can offend those who presume we buy into the their religious beliefs.

Raising kids has been interesting with regard to religion. If it were up to me, religion would not be part of their lives. But my wife is Jewish. And for many Jewish people, it’s very important that their children have a Jewish identity. So our kids attend Hebrew school and are essentially being raised Jewish. And I get why my wife wants that. Her great grandparents and great great grandparents escaped persecution for their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. Many of her other relatives were killed in the Holocaust due to their religious beliefs and Jewish identity. So I totally get why she wants to preserve that identity through generations, and I’m totally cool with that. For me personally, what I hope my kids ultimately get out of it when they are old enough to truly think for themselves is that they have a Jewish identity and that the biblical stories are fantasy.
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I grew up in a white Evangelical church and went to a private Christian school from kindergarten through high school. I was "saved" at the age of 4 (how silly is that??) and baptized at 12 because it was the cool thing to do. Even in middle school, I held a healthy skepticism toward Christianity and most certainly thought it was bunk by high school. I went along with the flow though because it was what I was supposed to do and didn't want to be ostracized. I never went to church again once I left for Chapel Hill other than when I came home to visit my parents on the weekends or during Holiday breaks. They were still supporting me financially at that point so I didn't have much choice. I haven't been to church in roughly 20 years now and don't plan on ever going back.

I used to be fairly neutral when my parents would encourage my kids to attend church service and functions with them. I thought it would be best to let them make their own choices in that regard. I've become more opinionated on that front in the past couple years as the dangers and hypocrisy of the Church have been further exposed by its genuflection to Trump. Fortunately, my kids never had earnest interest in attending church and even their mild interest has waned with time.
 
JCTarheel82 said:
I grew up in a white Evangelical church and went to a private Christian school from kindergarten through high school. I was "saved" at the age of 4 (how silly is that??) and baptized at 12 because it was the cool thing to do. Even in middle school, I held a healthy skepticism toward Christianity and most certainly thought it was bunk by high school. I went along with the flow though because it was what I was supposed to do and didn't want to be ostracized. I never went to church again once I left for Chapel Hill other than when I came home to visit my parents on the weekends or during Holiday breaks. They were still supporting me financially at that point so I didn't have much choice. I haven't been to church in roughly 20 years now and don't plan on ever going back.

I used to be fairly neutral when my parents would encourage my kids to attend church service and functions with them. I thought it would be best to let them make their own choices in that regard. I've become more opinionated on that front in the past couple years as the dangers and hypocrisy of the Church have been further exposed by its genuflection to Trump. Fortunately, my kids never had earnest interest in attending church and even their mild interest has waned with time.
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Not counting weddings and funerals, I can’t say I’ve ever been to church of my own free will. I’m pretty sure the last time I just went to a normal Sunday service would have been when I was in high school (more than 30 years ago). My parents always liked to do the late Christmas Eve service, and even into my 30s, before I met my wife, they would drag me to that when we spent Christmas Eve together. It was always the worst. We’d be having good time hanging on Christmas Eve, having a few drinks, and then around 10:00 we had to stop having a good time and go to church. Total buzzkill. I think the last time I went to a Christmas Eve service was in 2009. So that would have been the last time I stepped into a church for something other than a wedding, funeral, or baptism.
 
Last time I went except for those was about 15 years ago when my 80 year old mom was ordained as a deacon in the independent Baptist church she and my stepfather joined after he retired as a Southern Baptist minister.
 
Icky Mettle said:
Not counting weddings and funerals, I can’t say I’ve ever been to church of my own free will. I’m pretty sure the last time I just went to a normal Sunday service would have been when I was in high school (more than 30 years ago). My parents always liked to do the late Christmas Eve service, and even into my 30s, before I met my wife, they would drag me to that when we spent Christmas Eve together. It was always the worst. We’d be having good time hanging on Christmas Eve, having a few drinks, and then around 10:00 we had to stop having a good time and go to church. Total buzzkill. I think the last time I went to a Christmas Eve service was in 2009. So that would have been the last time I stepped into a church for something other than a wedding, funeral, or baptism.
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I'm in the same boat as far as never having attended church of my own free will other than weddings and funerals, and to be honest I typically didn't want to be there for those either lol. I attended church only because my parents required it. It was always Sunday school and the main service on Sunday mornings, Sunday evening service, and then youth group on Wednesday evenings once I started middle school. They wouldn't even let me skip the one Sunday evening service each year to watch the Super Bowl 🙄

And now that you mention it, I recall attending a handful of Christmas or Easter services in my 20s and early 30s at the church I grew up in. I didn't want to but my wife badgered me into going because she still believed in the Church at the time and enjoyed the fellowship as well. I think she also wanted to show off the kids when they were little lol. So it's been probably more like 10 years since I've attended a church service instead of the 20 I was thinking before.
 
I was active for about 20 years at the Episcopal congregation next to the Planetarium I was active in a small Bible study/Book Study group, three denominations represented . I was very active in the do gooder committee I got to know pretty well which congregations were top of the line in community do gooder/even political "lobbying"-for Food, Homeless, prison ministry etc
Top of the line were Community Church of Chapel Hill (Universalist) , St Thomas Moore , Kehilllah (Jewish). Lots of other Churches did their thing but these were the power hitters you wanted to be on a team with for Community improvement
So denominations -I don't care ( and obviously one was not Christian)-what the Church does-matters.Thats me
Deeds . If you belive in Jesus Christ as your Savior-great-but I like deeds
 
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