Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

[superrific]

It would be helpful if people could realize that this conflict has almost nothing to do with "organized religion", especially on the Palestinian side.

I don't really think that is a supportable statement. Hamas is a theocratic organization, Islamist to the core. Whether or not its reliance on terrorism is specific to the religion, the specific methodologies surely are. I don't know of any non-Islamic terrorist organizations (of which there are many) who use suicide bombings as their primary offensive weapon (which has been true of Islamism basically everywhere until quite recently).

 

[mpaer]

I just wish we would take care of our business and stay out of others. No one is ever going to stop all the crazy organized religions from killing one nother though.

I can't tell you if we are best buddies with Israel-because we took the UN Que after WW II-or, well we are hugely involved in the Middle East because of Oil . But after 9/11 I think it is given we will be involved in that region-forever Now I will grant you there might not have beeen a 9/11 if we had not been so involved-but yea oil

 

[gtyellowjacket]

No we left Germany in shambles and did nothing to help afterwards.

Germany wasn't in shambles. I might be wrong but I don't think a single shell landed on German soil during WW1. I am confident it was between zero and very few.

But I thought he meant non-interventionism in the sense that we aren't putting troops on the ground. No one knows for sure, but I think if we stayed out of WW1, we and the world would have been better off.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Thats ridiculous.....easy to be self sufficient if we werent so greedy ad power hungry. Plenty of countries are basically self sufficient.

Which countries?

 

[farce©]

Germany wasn't in shambles. I might be wrong but I don't think a single shell landed on German soil during WW1. I am confident it was between zero and very few.

But I thought he meant non-interventionism in the sense that we aren't putting troops on the ground. No one knows for sure, but I think if we stayed out of WW1, we and the world would have been better off.

Germany was in economic shambles after WW1 and the crushing reparations imposed by the Treaty of Versailles made matters worse. The hardship of the reparations along with the territorial concession required (remember Lebensraum?) led to the rise of Nazis

 

[TarSpiel]

The PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah over the decades have leveraged religion, but mostly it's been about "driving the Jews to the sea."

And by "driving the Jews to the sea" they mostly mean regaining their own land that was stolen from them.

 

[mpaer]

And by "driving the Jews to the sea" they mostly mean regaining their own land that was stolen from them.

There is some truth to this

 

[TarSpiel]

I don't really think that is a supportable statement. Hamas is a theocratic organization, Islamist to the core. Whether or not its reliance on terrorism is specific to the religion, the specific methodologies surely are. I don't know of any non-Islamic terrorist organizations (of which there are many) who use suicide bombings as their primary offensive weapon (which has been true of Islamism basically everywhere until quite recently).

It's absolutely supportable.

What you say about Hamas is true-ish, but really need to be understood in its historical context, and specifically that much of the Islamic world didn't really come into contact with industrialized Europe until oil was found there, and that fact has shaped the forms of resistance, violent and non-violent, that have taken shape in the region. But more importantly to this point, Hamas is 2% of the population of Gaza, if that.

What the Palestinians want, at core, has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with getting back the land and property that was taken from them, having security and quality of life for their children, economic opportunity, and basic freedoms. None of those things are unique to Islam, nor really do they have anything to do with it.

 

[TarSpiel]

Tell that to Bezalel Smotrich:

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israeli-finance-minister-west-bank-jewish-settlement-9f2307ab?st=jm0urelbvvdj6iz&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Zionism is the reason I qualified my statement with "especially on the Palestinian side"

Zionism does drive the conflict, and it does have its roots in religious ideology. It's also got some generational trauma from European antisemitism and the Nazi holocaust, but that's another story.

 

[Duke Mu]

And by "driving the Jews to the sea" they mostly mean regaining their own land that was stolen from them.

It's a bit more complex than that.

Before the WWI victory of the British and Allies over the Ottoman Turks, Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot agreement splitting mandates in the Middle East and worked out a deal with the Saudis. Syria and Lebanon became under the control of the French. Algeria, Morocco became French protectorates. Egypt and control of the Suez Canal to the Brits. The British made up the country of Iraq to maximize oil flow, and screwing over the Kurds. Saudi Princes became Kings in Syria, Iraq. The Brits split off part of Palestine (bastardized from Philistines, hated enemies of the Jews) into Trans-Jordan and eventually Jordan.

After WWII the Brits and UN in their infinite wisdom decided to further divide the rest of Palestine in Israel and Palestine - West Bank + Gaza...a decision at least as disastrous as the India/Pakistan decision. The country of Palestine existed from November 1947 - May 1948 when Jordan, Egypt, and Syria attempted to drive the Jews to the Sea.

Israel captured a small portion of the West Bank and annexed it. Most of the West Bank fell into the hands of Jordan, who annexed the WB. It is part of the Jordanian UN charter. Egypt made Gaza a territory. Egypt and Jordan occupied legally the WB and Gaza for 20 years.

In 1954 the Arab States attacked Israel again. It did not go well for them. In 1967 it was deja vu all over again. This time it was a complete disaster for the Arab states. Israel captured the strategic Golan Heights. Eventually, Israel rightly annexed the Golan Heights. IMO, Israel made a huge mistake in not annexing the WB and Gaza in 1967 - instead they used them as negotiating pieces with mixed results long-term. Since the mid 1960s Egyptian/Palestinian/Iran backed terrorists (PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah) have fronted the Palestinians, who have used the people as human shields.

At this point, although "Palestine" only existed for 6 months almost 80 years ago...the only viable solution is a 3-state one (Jordan, Israel, Palestine) where Palestine is under a shared Arab State/US/Israel protectorate. The allied team would chose the leadership of Palestine. Hamas would be banned. Bibi would deservedly lose his PM post and likely be thrown in prison.

So, you can understand why Bibi and Hamas are pretending to make additional demands to avoid signing their own political death warrants. We must hope and pray that they are leveraged to do so. There are no more viable military targets or operations left. What is left is to make the peace.
.

 

[Duke Mu]

 

[TarSpiel]

It's a bit more complex than that.

Before the WWI victory of the British and Allies over the Ottoman Turks, Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot agreement splitting mandates in the Middle East and worked out a deal with the Saudis. Syria and Lebanon became under the control of the French. Algeria, Morocco became French protectorates. Egypt and control of the Suez Canal to the Brits. The British made up the country of Iraq to maximize oil flow, and screwing over the Kurds. Saudi Princes became Kings in Syria, Iraq. The Brits split off part of Palestine (bastardized from Philistines, hated enemies of the Jews) into Trans-Jordan and eventually Jordan.

After WWII the Brits and UN in their infinite wisdom decided to further divide the rest of Palestine in Israel and Palestine - West Bank + Gaza...a decision at least as disastrous as the India/Pakistan decision. The country of Palestine existed from November 1947 - May 1948 when Jordan, Egypt, and Syria attempted to drive the Jews to the Sea.

Israel captured a small portion of the West Bank and annexed it. Most of the West Bank fell into the hands of Jordan, who annexed the WB. It is part of the Jordanian UN charter. Egypt made Gaza a territory. Egypt and Jordan occupied legally the WB and Gaza for 20 years.

In 1954 the Arab States attacked Israel again. It did not go well for them. In 1967 deja vu all over again. This time it was a disaster. Israel captured the strategic Golan Heights. Eventually, Israel rightly annexed the Golan Heights. IMO Israel made a huger mistake in not annexing the WB and Gaza in 1967 - instead they used them as a negotiating piece with mixed results long-term. Since the mid 1960s Egyptian/Palestinian/Iran backed terrorists (PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah) have fronted the Palestinians, who have used the people as human shields.

At this point, although "Palestine" only existed for 6 months almost 80 years ago...the only viable solution is a 3-state (Jordan, Israel, Palestine) that is under a shared Arab State/US/Israel protectorate. The allied team would chose the leadership of PAlestine. Hamas would be banned. Bibi would deservedly lose his PM post and likely be thrown in prison.

So, you can understand why Bibi and Hamas are pretending to make additional demands to avoid signing their own political death warrants. We must hope and pray that they are leveraged to do so. There are no more viable military targets or operations left. What is left is to make the peace.
.

Yes, I'm aware of the history. Your snippet of it here is tendentious, but decent.

The Palestinian demands are overwhelmingly material, and rooted in a powerful and IMO justified sense of being wronged not just by Israel, but by Britain, the US, and the UN. To the extent they want to "drive the Jews to the sea" (which you quoted, and which I'm sure you know is often used to paint the Palestinians as Islamist zealots), that desire is overwhelmingly for redress of wrongs, and restoration of lands and goods taken from them against their will, and has little or nothing to do with religion.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Yes, I'm aware of the history. Your snippet of it here is tendentious, but decent.

The Palestinian demands are overwhelmingly material, and rooted in a powerful and IMO justified sense of being wronged not just by Israel, but by Britain, the US, and the UN. To the extent they want to "drive the Jews to the sea" (which you quoted, and which I'm sure you know is often used to paint the Palestinians as Islamist zealots), that desire is overwhelmingly for redress of wrongs, and restoration of lands and goods taken from them against their will, and has little or nothing to do with religion.

The Palestinians have to understand that they aren’t going to get that land back any more than the Native Americans are going to get New York back. Every nation that exists today was built through some sort of conquest at one point in history.

 

[Sandinista]

this is all a nothing burger. jared kushner solved this a while ago. the Middle East is old news.

 

[Patb78]

One of the greatest movies of all time. V

 

[CLT Heel]

The Palestinians have to understand that they aren’t going to get that land back any more than the Native Americans are going to get New York back. Every nation that exists today was built through some sort of conquest at one point in history.

I said basically this same sentiment on the old ZZLP, much to the dismay of a few of the posters on this thread. I can only speak for myself, and my very American-centric thinking, but if I was in a similar situation here, and the lives of my family were at risk, I would say “bye bye America!” and leave tomorrow.

Here’s the thing though. I know that’s not possible for the Palestinians, because NONE OF THEIR MUSLIM BROTHERS WANTS THEM. You would think that Jordan or Syria or Egypt or any number of the surrounding Muslim countries would offer up asylum for the Palestinians to prevent and/or end the continuing war. But they literally wont take them.

Instead the ever dwindling Palestine, thanks to hamas, is hell-bent on “getting their land back”, which as you stated will literally never happen without a SIGNIFICANT war. And, by the way, as alluded to in the above post, just how far back do you go, because guess what? The land was the Israelites before it was the Palestinians.

 

[p5mmr9]

Yes, I'm aware of the history. Your snippet of it here is tendentious, but decent.

The Palestinian demands are overwhelmingly material, and rooted in a powerful and IMO justified sense of being wronged not just by Israel, but by Britain, the US, and the UN. To the extent they want to "drive the Jews to the sea" (which you quoted, and which I'm sure you know is often used to paint the Palestinians as Islamist zealots), that desire is overwhelmingly for redress of wrongs, and restoration of lands and goods taken from them against their will, and has little or nothing to do with religion.

It's strange you omit the entirety of the Arab world in your list of groups that "wronged" the Palestinians. It was the Arab League and the UN Palestinian delegation that refused to negotiate with the UN for the partition plan - believing they could just defeat the Jews and kick them all out. This inconvenient fact is why reviewing "past wrongs" is a road to nowhere. Every group involved has their own arguments in favor of their positions. If this were a simple right vs. wrong situation we would have had a solution.

 

[TarSpiel]

It's strange you omit the entirety of the Arab world in your list of groups that "wronged" the Palestinians.

I don't have a problem adding them to the list, so thanks for the feedback.

Worth pointing out though that Arabs didn't steal the Palestinians' land and property, so they're not exactly at the top of the list of here.

 

[TarSpiel]

The Palestinians have to understand that they aren’t going to get that land back

The Palestinians I've met are enomously practical people, and all of them understand you can't but that djinn back in the bottle.

That doesn't mean any of them will stop advocating for fairness, opportunity and freedom for their families and their children. And they are certainly not going to get any of those things in the Gaza ghetto.

It's beyond time that the western world stand with the Jewish groups who fight for and advocate for basic rights and freedoms for the Palestinians.

 

[TarSpiel]

The land was the Israelites before it was the Palestinians.

Yea, back before it was owned by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Byzantium (and right after it was owned for 2,000 years by the Canaanites). Israel's "ownership" of that land amounts to a couple of hundred years about 1000 BC. Islamic "ownership" amounts to about 1,500 years. But yea, we should just give it all back to the Jebusites.

And blaming other Arab countries for the behavior of Israel towards the Palestinians (when their own Torah tells them to "welcome the stranger, for you yourselves were strangers once in the land of Egypt)...that's like the dog did something wrong so you tell everybody to kick the cat.

Two other points should be made, apart from the fact that this situation wasn't created by the other Arab countries. One, it would be enormously expensive and logistically difficult to take in the Palestinians. Jordan has done a lot of work along these lines - for decades - but it's not easy. But maybe more importantly, if other Arab countries just said "Okay, send us your Palestinians" that would give Israel just the excuse it needs to set up a racially pure ethno-state and to build those condos it so covets on the Gaza seashore (in which case you can bet your bottom dollar the area will finally get the infrastructure - gas, electricity, waste management, security - that Israel for decades has refused to provide).