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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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Batt Boy said:
So the problem lies with one side?

"Hamas is a symptom. The problem is the apartheid state"

This is why it will go on and on.
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Sigh. The problem is the apartheid state. How we got to this apartheid state is a long and sordid story with many bad actors on both sides.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Seems like a lot of victim blaming to me. "Palestinians have had it rough, so their only recourse is to rape and murder hundreds of Israeli civilians at a time." Hamas is a cancer, and when a cancer is killing you (you in this case being the idea of a Palestinian state), you have to get rid of the cancer. The Jews have been violently attacked by their neighbors as long as Israel has existed. They have a right to defend themselves, and they have a right to exist. Hamas does not recognize either of those rights. Trying to play off an Islamist terrorist group as "irrelevant" when Hamas is the literal reason there has been a war in Gaza for nearly a year is shortsighted and misguided.

The war will end when Hamas is destroyed. Israel is the victim here, as are the Palestinians who are governed by Hamas.
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1. The majority of Palestinians, I am quite sure, do not support the raping and murdering. But, like all peoples, they do want someone to stand up for them. The PLO/Fatah staked everything on getting the peace deal and it didn't happen for complicated reasons. So the militant Palestinian faction took control in Gaza.

2. The people of Gaza have no right to self-determination. They are ruled by a hostile foreign power who does not recognize their right to exist (sound familiar?) So, again like most peoples, they want to free themselves from that occupation. Israel didn't give them peace in the 90s, so like the IRA, the Basque nationalists, and many other independence movements (including our own founding fathers, who would undoubtedly be considered terrorists in today's world), they again turned to a terrorist group. It has been a poor choice.

In the end, though, peace will only come when Palestinians are given the right of self-determination and aren't being starved. Even before O6, the living conditions in Gaza were deplorable because of an Israeli blockade that had no justification in law.

3. I thought we were talking about the future -- you know, "five years down the line." If Hamas doesn't exist, there will be a new Hamas. Israel keeps hoping that the Palestinians will roll over and let Israel steal all their land, keep them confined in Gaza with little infrastructure or opportunity, and periodic crises of food and medicine. That isn't going to happen.

This is why the "imagine if Hamas had used the $10B in international aid they were given on something other than tunnels" is a lie. You can't build businesses without reliable energy and water. As long as Israel can blockade Gaza at will, there will be no economic development there.

4. The victims are overwhelmingly the Palestinian people, and to a much lesser extent Israel. The conflict has had plenty of blame to go around everywhere, but there isn't any reasonable disagreement as to who has suffered the most.
 
superrific said:
Sigh. The problem is the apartheid state. How we got to this apartheid state is a long and sordid story with many bad actors on both sides.
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An apartheid state in which Arabs have equal rights and full citizenship? An apartheid state that won't just open its doors to people that openly state they want to murder every single Jew "from the river to the sea"? Every nation has a right to protect its own borders. Israel has been under attack since the moment it existed. And let's not forget why Israel was formed in the first place.
 
superrific said:
1. The majority of Palestinians, I am quite sure, do not support the raping and murdering. But, like all peoples, they do want someone to stand up for them. The PLO/Fatah staked everything on getting the peace deal and it didn't happen for complicated reasons. So the militant Palestinian faction took control in Gaza.
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I'm not so sure about that. The only opinion polls we've seen from Gaza have shown that the overwhelming majority of people there supported 10/7. Now, if they actually supported it or if they were just afraid to say otherwise for fear of repercussions from Hamas is a different discussion.

superrific said:
2. The people of Gaza have no right to self-determination. They are ruled by a hostile foreign power who does not recognize their right to exist (sound familiar?) So, again like most peoples, they want to free themselves from that occupation. Israel didn't give them peace in the 90s, so like the IRA, the Basque nationalists, and many other independence movements (including our own founding fathers, who would undoubtedly be considered terrorists in today's world), they again turned to a terrorist group. It has been a poor choice.
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The people of Gaza had a right to self-determination and chose to be governed by Hamas, a known international terrorist group. Their chosen government misused billions in international aid, using it to build tunnels and purchase weapons that it used to launch terrorist attacks. The fact that the government of Gaza chose to squander its opportunity to create an actual desirable place for its people to live in and instead focused only on "killing the Jews" is not Israel's fault. Israel withdrew from Gaza, and the result was thousands of missiles launched at Israeli cities and then 10/7.
superrific said:
3. I thought we were talking about the future -- you know, "five years down the line." If Hamas doesn't exist, there will be a new Hamas. Israel keeps hoping that the Palestinians will roll over and let Israel steal all their land, keep them confined in Gaza with little infrastructure or opportunity, and periodic crises of food and medicine. That isn't going to happen.
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Are you saying that Palestinians are only capable of voting for terrorist regimes to govern them? The West Bank would beg to differ. I think if Palestinians were given a choice in 6 months between electing the group that brought about the destruction of Gaza or electing a group that would work with the international community to rebuild Gaza and sustain peace, they would choose the latter.

superrific said:
This is why the "imagine if Hamas had used the $10B in international aid they were given on something other than tunnels" is a lie. You can't build businesses without reliable energy and water. As long as Israel can blockade Gaza at will, there will be no economic development there.
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If that is your argument, then where did the tunnels come from? Ants?
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
An apartheid state in which Arabs have equal rights and full citizenship? An apartheid state that won't just open its doors to people that openly state they want to murder every single Jew "from the river to the sea"? Every nation has a right to protect its own borders. Israel has been under attack since the moment it existed. And let's not forget why Israel was formed in the first place.
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Treated the same?? That is 100% false. I’ve been over this a million times to repeat it, but just do some research about it and you’ll see the difference.

As for your last sentence, so because of the actions of genocidal Europeans, Palestinians needed to sacrifice their home? Let’s not forget that they were given a land that already was populated. The reason Israel “has been under attack since it was formed” was because how it was formed. If someone moved into your house and killed your family and kicked you out, you wouldn’t just live in the basement peacefully. But then if you fight back, then they’re the victim while you’re the aggressor. How does that make sense?
 
RaiGuy said:
Treated the same?? That is 100% false. I’ve been over this a million times to repeat it, but just do some research about it and you’ll see the difference.

As for your last sentence, so because of the actions of genocidal Europeans, Palestinians needed to sacrifice their home? Let’s not forget that they were given a land that already was populated. The reason Israel “has been under attack since it was formed” was because how it was formed. If someone moved into your house and killed your family and kicked you out, you wouldn’t just live in the basement peacefully. But then if you fight back, then they’re the victim while you’re the aggressor. How does that make sense?
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Can you name a single nation that doesn't have some sort of warfare or conquest in its history? Are you going to give up your home to a Native American? Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Can you name a single nation that doesn't have some sort of warfare or conquest in its history? Are you going to give up your home to a Native American? Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
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The difference is that Native Americans are full citizens and have equal rights. They aren’t forced to live like prisoners or be humiliated on a daily basis.

The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
 
RaiGuy said:
The difference is that Native Americans are full citizens and have equal rights. They aren’t forced to live like prisoners or be humiliated on a daily basis.

The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
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And maybe they wouldn't be living like prisoners if their government used the billions of dollars in aid it has received on improving their lives instead of tunnels and weapons to wage war with?

With regard to your second question, it isn't like they had a buffet of options to choose from. Going back to your traditional holy land in the midst of the largest targeted extermination in human history isn't something that I am going to judge them for.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I'm not so sure about that. The only opinion polls we've seen from Gaza have shown that the overwhelming majority of people there supported 10/7. Now, if they actually supported it or if they were just afraid to say otherwise for fear of repercussions from Hamas is a different discussion.



The people of Gaza had a right to self-determination and chose to be governed by Hamas, a known international terrorist group. Their chosen government misused billions in international aid, using it to build tunnels and purchase weapons that it used to launch terrorist attacks. The fact that the government of Gaza chose to squander its opportunity to create an actual desirable place for its people to live in and instead focused only on "killing the Jews" is not Israel's fault. Israel withdrew from Gaza, and the result was thousands of missiles launched at Israeli cities and then 10/7.

Are you saying that Palestinians are only capable of voting for terrorist regimes to govern them? The West Bank would beg to differ. I think if Palestinians were given a choice in 6 months between electing the group that brought about the destruction of Gaza or electing a group that would work with the international community to rebuild Gaza and sustain peace, they would choose the latter.


If that is your argument, then where did the tunnels come from? Ants?
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1. The "right of self-determination" was never a full right. It was, from the outset, going to be a limited government -- sort of like how DC has self-determination, unless Congress wants to overrule. And Hamas had a social services wing, which is what the Palestinians elected.

The way to know that Israel was never going to give Gaza autonomy is simple: Israel refused Gaza have the government they wanted. They tried to bully Gaza into not supporting Hamas, and then when Hamas was elected, the blockade followed. That decimated the social services wing, since they had nothing to offer the people given that Israel was withholding food, water and medicine.

Hamas was trying to be a full-service party but Israel's actions locked it into "terrorist group."

2. What I am saying is that Israel appears to have absolutely no intention to give Gaza any self-determination. That's why we are in permanent Hamas mode. If Israel were to allow elections, we'd probably see something considerably different. Get back to me when and if that happens.

3. Where did the tunnels come from? Are you serious? Ttunnels can be built under bad circumstances. What a government cannot do is attract capital to build businesses when it can't even provide food, water and power. What entrepreneur would want to set up shop in Gaza? Why would anyone build a factory there, given that Israel could shut off the water or the power at any time.

I'm well aware that Hamas was always interested in skimming development money to fund its tunnel building, etc. But, again, the blockade left it with little choice but to do that.
 
RaiGuy said:
The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
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To expand on your point, who cares whether Jews were there first? That was thousands of years ago. Nobody alive today has any known connection to ancient Judea. Nobody can say that they are descendants of anyone who lived in that area. Land doesn't belong to "religions."
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
And maybe they wouldn't be living like prisoners if their government used the billions of dollars in aid it has received on improving their lives instead of tunnels and weapons to wage war with?

With regard to your second question, it isn't like they had a buffet of options to choose from. Going back to your traditional holy land in the midst of the largest targeted extermination in human history isn't something that I am going to judge them for.
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You do know that Israel was limiting everything that was going in to Gaza? At one point, they had them on a calorie count Israel used 'calorie count' to limit Gaza food during blockade, critics claim
They could have all the money in the world, but it wouldn’t matter because Israel controls everything around them and their water supply and electricity.

For your second paragraph, why didn’t the area that was responsible for the largest targeted extermination provide a safe haven after the war? They could have given them part of Germany. Why should the Palestinians be punished for someone else’s crimes? You don’t fix one horrific tragedy by creating another one. But, I guess it was deemed fine because they’re just Muslims/non-european people.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
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That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
 
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TarSpiel said:
That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
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not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
 
Batt Boy said:
not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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I think it's more important that people in Gaza just want to live and have some kind of future. Living without autonomy was never going to work long-term. Imagine being accepted to a university abroad, but then Israel doesn't allow you to leave. Then you're stuck and have no options for future jobs. That's just one type of example. People rarely act out if they have happy and peaceful lives.
 
Rai, I was listening to a play list earlier today and a song came on that made me think of you and your family. Bob Dylan’s song Blowing In the Wind. I was going to type the applicable parts, but that would have meant typing the whole song (forgive me, but I’m not very computer literate). Please listen to the song if you aren’t familiar with it. God bless you and your family:
 
Batt Boy said:
the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
 
TarSpiel said:
You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
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That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
 
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