Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

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2ManyBlueCups said:
Can you name a single nation that doesn't have some sort of warfare or conquest in its history? Are you going to give up your home to a Native American? Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
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The difference is that Native Americans are full citizens and have equal rights. They aren’t forced to live like prisoners or be humiliated on a daily basis.

The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
 
RaiGuy said:
The difference is that Native Americans are full citizens and have equal rights. They aren’t forced to live like prisoners or be humiliated on a daily basis.

The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
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And maybe they wouldn't be living like prisoners if their government used the billions of dollars in aid it has received on improving their lives instead of tunnels and weapons to wage war with?

With regard to your second question, it isn't like they had a buffet of options to choose from. Going back to your traditional holy land in the midst of the largest targeted extermination in human history isn't something that I am going to judge them for.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I'm not so sure about that. The only opinion polls we've seen from Gaza have shown that the overwhelming majority of people there supported 10/7. Now, if they actually supported it or if they were just afraid to say otherwise for fear of repercussions from Hamas is a different discussion.



The people of Gaza had a right to self-determination and chose to be governed by Hamas, a known international terrorist group. Their chosen government misused billions in international aid, using it to build tunnels and purchase weapons that it used to launch terrorist attacks. The fact that the government of Gaza chose to squander its opportunity to create an actual desirable place for its people to live in and instead focused only on "killing the Jews" is not Israel's fault. Israel withdrew from Gaza, and the result was thousands of missiles launched at Israeli cities and then 10/7.

Are you saying that Palestinians are only capable of voting for terrorist regimes to govern them? The West Bank would beg to differ. I think if Palestinians were given a choice in 6 months between electing the group that brought about the destruction of Gaza or electing a group that would work with the international community to rebuild Gaza and sustain peace, they would choose the latter.


If that is your argument, then where did the tunnels come from? Ants?
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1. The "right of self-determination" was never a full right. It was, from the outset, going to be a limited government -- sort of like how DC has self-determination, unless Congress wants to overrule. And Hamas had a social services wing, which is what the Palestinians elected.

The way to know that Israel was never going to give Gaza autonomy is simple: Israel refused Gaza have the government they wanted. They tried to bully Gaza into not supporting Hamas, and then when Hamas was elected, the blockade followed. That decimated the social services wing, since they had nothing to offer the people given that Israel was withholding food, water and medicine.

Hamas was trying to be a full-service party but Israel's actions locked it into "terrorist group."

2. What I am saying is that Israel appears to have absolutely no intention to give Gaza any self-determination. That's why we are in permanent Hamas mode. If Israel were to allow elections, we'd probably see something considerably different. Get back to me when and if that happens.

3. Where did the tunnels come from? Are you serious? Ttunnels can be built under bad circumstances. What a government cannot do is attract capital to build businesses when it can't even provide food, water and power. What entrepreneur would want to set up shop in Gaza? Why would anyone build a factory there, given that Israel could shut off the water or the power at any time.

I'm well aware that Hamas was always interested in skimming development money to fund its tunnel building, etc. But, again, the blockade left it with little choice but to do that.
 
RaiGuy said:
The reason Jews were there first was because Islam didn’t exist yet. Many of them that remained became Muslim while many of the Jews in Israel now are of European decent. Also, if the area is so important to them, why did the Zionists consider other areas like in Argentina, east Africa, Cyprus, etc.. before deciding on Palestine?
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To expand on your point, who cares whether Jews were there first? That was thousands of years ago. Nobody alive today has any known connection to ancient Judea. Nobody can say that they are descendants of anyone who lived in that area. Land doesn't belong to "religions."
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
And maybe they wouldn't be living like prisoners if their government used the billions of dollars in aid it has received on improving their lives instead of tunnels and weapons to wage war with?

With regard to your second question, it isn't like they had a buffet of options to choose from. Going back to your traditional holy land in the midst of the largest targeted extermination in human history isn't something that I am going to judge them for.
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You do know that Israel was limiting everything that was going in to Gaza? At one point, they had them on a calorie count Israel used 'calorie count' to limit Gaza food during blockade, critics claim
They could have all the money in the world, but it wouldn’t matter because Israel controls everything around them and their water supply and electricity.

For your second paragraph, why didn’t the area that was responsible for the largest targeted extermination provide a safe haven after the war? They could have given them part of Germany. Why should the Palestinians be punished for someone else’s crimes? You don’t fix one horrific tragedy by creating another one. But, I guess it was deemed fine because they’re just Muslims/non-european people.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Not to mention the Jews had been in that area longer than the Muslims had.
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That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
 
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TarSpiel said:
That is wrong.

Jews got evicted from that area entirely after the Bar Kochba revolt, and many had left to form diaspora communities decades or centuries earlier. Muslims had pretty much continuous occupation of Palestine for about 1300 years. And here's the kicker: Muslims tolerated and got along fairly well with both the minority Christians and the remnant Jews who stayed (Christians maybe 10-20%, Jews maybe 5% or less).
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not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
 
Batt Boy said:
not entirely. remnants remained.

the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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I think it's more important that people in Gaza just want to live and have some kind of future. Living without autonomy was never going to work long-term. Imagine being accepted to a university abroad, but then Israel doesn't allow you to leave. Then you're stuck and have no options for future jobs. That's just one type of example. People rarely act out if they have happy and peaceful lives.
 
Rai, I was listening to a play list earlier today and a song came on that made me think of you and your family. Bob Dylan’s song Blowing In the Wind. I was going to type the applicable parts, but that would have meant typing the whole song (forgive me, but I’m not very computer literate). Please listen to the song if you aren’t familiar with it. God bless you and your family:
 
Batt Boy said:
the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza. They don't. They had it and left. The problem remains that Gaza wants Israel.
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You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
 
TarSpiel said:
You're right, the problem isn't that Israel wants Gaza.

The problem is that Israel took everything but Gaza, made Gaza into a ghetto and forced a bunch of Palestinians in there, many of whom would like their land and property back that Israel stole from them.
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That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
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Nobody is arguing that Hamas isn't part of the problem.

Who are you talking to?
 
The major impediments to peace since 1995 have been
1) Hamas
2) Netanyahu/Likud/religious extremists/settlers

The PLO and Palestinian Authrity accepted Israel in 1993 and have honored that since.
In the 1995 Israeli election, Netanyahu was going to lose to Yitzhak Rabin, who was a former general who wanted to close the peace deal with the PA and had the bona fides to do so. Netnyahu's inceniary campaign rhetoric inspired the finatic who assassinated Rabin. Peres, who was seen as weak, stepped in as replacement, Hamas did a few suicide bombings and
Netanyahy won.

Hamas and Netanyahu have been somewhat tied at the hip ever since. Netanyahy does not care about Gaza, only the WB. He needs Hamas around so he can claim he cannot give up WB.

Need to
1)sideline Hamas and Netanyahu,
2) put the PA in charge of Gaza in addition to WB
3) create and independent Pal state in WB and Gza,
4) end Israeli occupation of WB, Israel gives up its illegal settlement on WB or does mutally-agreed land swap with Pals,
5) insert a robust peace-keeping force
6) mutual recog between Israel and Pals, Israel and Arab states along the lines of what the Arab peace plan has long offered
7) have the world impose the peace settlement. The terms are well-known.

Otherwise, we will be rigbht back here in a few years.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.
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Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
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When they elected Hamas in, what was it, 2008?

When the majority of the residents of Gaza were either not yet born or still infants.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.
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The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.
 
RaiGuy said:
Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
 
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