Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

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2ManyBlueCups said:
The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.
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Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.
 
RaiGuy said:
Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.
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Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up the hospital, as was confirmed by US, British, and European intelligence. Israel has committed atrocities in this war, but that hospital explosion was not one of them.

I posted a NYT article a few pages back that stated that US intelligence believe that the war in Gaza has crippled Hamas much more than officials believed was possible last October. They stated that they don’t believe that Hamas will be capable of another 10/7 attack for the foreseeable future and that Hamas has even offered to stop governing in Gaza. That’s essentially what Israel’s stated goal was at the beginning of this war which means that their offensive has been effective. At this point a cease fire is actually feasible and hopefully for all sides involved it happens quickly.

With regard to the 20,000 versus 40,000 figure, I was referring to civilians killed and not the overall number of people killed in Gaza. Of course the 20k combatant figure is up for debate as it varies significantly depending on your source.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up the hospital, as was confirmed by US, British, and European intelligence. Israel has committed atrocities in this war, but that hospital explosion was not one of them.

I posted a NYT article a few pages back that stated that US intelligence believe that the war in Gaza has crippled Hamas much more than officials believed was possible last October. They stated that they don’t believe that Hamas will be capable of another 10/7 attack for the foreseeable future and that Hamas has even offered to stop governing in Gaza. That’s essentially what Israel’s stated goal was at the beginning of this war which means that their offensive has been effective. At this point a cease fire is actually feasible and hopefully for all sides involved it happens quickly.

With regard to the 20,000 versus 40,000 figure, I was referring to civilians killed and not the overall number of people killed in Gaza. Of course the 20k combatant figure is up for debate as it varies significantly depending on your source.
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All of those were basing their intelligence on what Israel provided, which turned out to be fabricated. Hamas might be temporarily crippled, but they have the best recruiting tool they could ask for. You can’t get rid of a group like that using heavy violence against civilians.

The 20,000 number is definitely off. There have been nearly 20k children alone that have been killed. What Israel wants you to believe is that every man over 18 is part of Hamas. They keep feeding lying and the west keeps repeating their lies. Again, they can allow neutral investigators and media in to reveal the truth, but they ban them from entering and they target/kill the journalists that are in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than any other “war” in history.
 
TarSpiel said:
Hamas said, "The civilian casualties are on us, even more so than they are on Israel"

Are you really that stupid?
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Hamas has stated that their goal is to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties because their martyrdom helps their PR battle. Which is why they do things like strap suicide bombs to children, or launch rockets from schools, or use hospitals as command centers, and so on.
 
RaiGuy said:
All of those were basing their intelligence on what Israel provided, which turned out to be fabricated. Hamas might be temporarily crippled, but they have the best recruiting tool they could ask for. You can’t get rid of a group like that using heavy violence against civilians.

The 20,000 number is definitely off. There have been nearly 20k children alone that have been killed. What Israel wants you to believe is that every man over 18 is part of Hamas. They keep feeding lying and the west keeps repeating their lies. Again, they can allow neutral investigators and media in to reveal the truth, but they ban them from entering and they target/kill the journalists that are in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than any other “war” in history.
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No, they based their intelligence on a lot of factors including forensic photo and video analysis of the scene which showed a lack of any type of crater and damage not consistent with any Israeli munition but instead consistent with the thousands of rockets that Hamas and PIJ had been firing at Israel and which had been known to fall short in the past.

Many of the “journalists” killed have been Hamas members, a fact that Israel has exposed repeatedly during this war.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
No, they based their intelligence on a lot of factors including forensic photo and video analysis of the scene which showed a lack of any type of crater and damage not consistent with any Israeli munition but instead consistent with the thousands of rockets that Hamas and PIJ had been firing at Israel and which had been known to fall short in the past.

Many of the “journalists” killed have been Hamas members, a fact that Israel has exposed repeatedly during this war.
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That is complete bullshit. Anytime Israel wants to justify its killings, they just throw Hamas accusations without any shred of proof. They said that the UNRWA was flooded with Hamas members, and it was later revealed, as usual, that it was a complete fabrication.

As for the hospital attack, Israel has different bombs that they use. One of them blows up before impact to increase damage and it doesn’t leave a crater like the others. Again, if they have nothing to hide, allow investigators to come in and do their job.
 
RaiGuy said:
That is complete bullshit. Anytime Israel wants to justify its killings, they just throw Hamas accusations without any shred of proof. They said that the UNRWA was flooded with Hamas members, and it was later revealed, as usual, that it was a complete fabrication.

As for the hospital attack, Israel has different bombs that they use. One of them blows up before impact to increase damage and it doesn’t leave a crater like the others. Again, if they have nothing to hide, allow investigators to come in and do their job.
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US, European and Australian intel independently corroborated that Israel had nothing to do with the hospital explosion that killed 2,000….err….1,000…..err….maybe 50 people. No missile fragments, no crater, no visible damage to the hospital aside from broken glass, PIJ rocket launched towards the hospital just before the explosion, etc. I’ll take their words for it over Hamas’s. If it is good enough for the Pentagon it is good enough for me.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
US, European and Australian intel independently corroborated that Israel had nothing to do with the hospital explosion that killed 2,000….err….1,000…..err….maybe 50 people. No missile fragments, no crater, no visible damage to the hospital aside from broken glass, PIJ rocket launched towards the hospital just before the explosion, etc. I’ll take their words for it over Hamas’s. If it is good enough for the Pentagon it is good enough for me.
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Are you unable to see two sides of an issue, or can you in theory see both but choose not to?
 
TarSpiel said:
Are you unable to see two sides of an issue, or can you in theory see both but choose not to?
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Some issues have two sides. Some issues are cut and dry. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has numerous sides. This particular incident was pretty cut and dry, though.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Some issues have two sides. Some issues are cut and dry. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has numerous sides. This particular incident was pretty cut and dry, though.
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Really? Cut and dry? Again, you still haven’t responded to this, why if Israel has nothing to hide are they blocking third party investigators and media? Also, as I stated before, they use bombs that don’t create craters (made in the USA). They also 100% fabricated a recording that they claimed was a call between IJ members that was laughably fake. The accents aren’t right and the whole conversation sounded staged. It’s similar to the evidence about the underground tunnel where the soldier was pointing to a calendar saying that it was a name of Hamas members when it was clearly just the days of the week.
And you’re defending this one hospital attack, but again, what about every other hospital and school in Gaza? Hamas can’t operate everywhere. There were reports that maybe only 2% of the population was Hamas, yet Israel has destroyed or damaged almost all the infrastructure in Gaza because they claim Hamas use it. If you believe that to be true, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also, you never answered the question I asked a while ago about your background with that region.
 
RaiGuy said:
Really? Cut and dry? Again, you still haven’t responded to this, why if Israel has nothing to hide are they blocking third party investigators and media? Also, as I stated before, they use bombs that don’t create craters (made in the USA). They also 100% fabricated a recording that they claimed was a call between IJ members that was laughably fake. The accents aren’t right and the whole conversation sounded staged. It’s similar to the evidence about the underground tunnel where the soldier was pointing to a calendar saying that it was a name of Hamas members when it was clearly just the days of the week.
And you’re defending this one hospital attack, but again, what about every other hospital and school in Gaza? Hamas can’t operate everywhere. There were reports that maybe only 2% of the population was Hamas, yet Israel has destroyed or damaged almost all the infrastructure in Gaza because they claim Hamas use it. If you believe that to be true, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also, you never answered the question I asked a while ago about your background with that region.
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Yes, cut and dry. Israel didn’t control access to the hospital when it was struck by the rocket…Hamas did. Israel was in the opening part of its war when the hospital incident occurred. Intelligence from multiple independent western nations quickly determined through video and photographic evidence as well as analysis of the trajectory of PIJ rockets that were fired shortly before the explosion that Israel had nothing to do with to with it. Why would Israel divert ground forces from its operations to engage in a battle at a hospital just to prove something that had already been proven?

With regard to your second question, Hamas doesn’t operate out of fixed bases. It is highly mobile and also operates from tunnels that are located underneath much of Gaza. It routinely uses schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings to conduct military operations…the same was confirmed by none other than the UN even years before this latest escalation occurred.

I don’t have any background in Israel or Palestine. I’m an observer just like 99% of other Americans. I have been following the situation for my entire adult life, however.
 
SmilingJack said:
Not to me or many on here? Your confidence implies absolutes that don't exist.
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I can’t control how you feel about something or interpret information. I trust our intelligence much more than I trust a Hamas spokesperson. I also trust the British, the Germans, the Australians, etc when they all independently reach the same conclusion. I also trust my eyes. But, everyone is different.
 
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