Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[gtyellowjacket]

I see a major ad buy coming in the Detroit suburbs.

Hopefully, but unfortunately I also see major ad buys in dozens of congressional districts that will push Trump allies.

 

[RaiGuy]

Israel would prefer to not kill civilians. Hamas uses civilians as protection because they know Israel is more concerned about Palestinian civilians than Hamas is.

Hamas, and the Palestinians they are endangering, believes that dead civilian will be swept away to paradise, so there's no real reason to care.

Interesting....so Israel would prefer not to kill civilians, yet they are actively starving a whole population. How does that make sense?

 

[ZenMode]

Interesting....so Israel would prefer not to kill civilians, yet they are actively starving a whole population. How does that make sense?

Everything I've read says that Israel has been nothing but helpful in trying to get aid into Gaza. What have you read that makes you believe otherwise?

 

[RaiGuy]

Everything I've read says that Israel has been nothing but helpful in trying to get aid into Gaza. What have you read that makes you believe otherwise?

Really?
Let's see, they have blocked aid trucks. They have bombed aid trucks and aid organizations multiple times. They have massacred people attempting to get aid from trucks. They have killed multiple people trying to fish to survive. They have sniped people walking with water. They have bombed refugee tent camps where people were attempting to stay safe and get aid. And that's not even including the settlers that have stopped trucks and destroyed the aid.

 

[ZenMode]

Really?
Let's see, they have blocked aid trucks. They have bombed aid trucks and aid organizations multiple times. They have massacred people attempting to get aid from trucks. They have killed multiple people trying to fish to survive. They have sniped people walking with water. They have bombed refugee tent camps where people were attempting to stay safe and get aid. And that's not even including the settlers that have stopped trucks and destroyed the aid.

Without knowing the details of individual events, I can't really comment, but according to the DoD, the US has moved over 1 million pounds of aid into Gaza, and that is as of May.

 

[nycfan]

I was frustrated by reporting that didn’t seem to add-up about the state of vaccination in Gaza — widely claiming that Gaza had 99% vaccination rate before O7 but now it has already dropped to 89% or lower, which is hard to made sense even with a high death toll from the war and high birth rate.

By looking up medical journals about vaccination and public health issues published prior to 2023, what I figured out was the following:

* children start vaccination there at 12-months old
* WHO had a very effective program that improved vaccination rates there starting around 2005 or so and reached and maintained an estimated 99% vaccination rate (with some notes that data is mostly extrapolated from health care worker reports and outcomes (lack of polio and measles outbreaks)). But the success rate probably peaked in 2019 and the pandemic resulted in growing vaccine resistance in Gaza in 2020 and 2021. Plus the impact of the pandemic made the ability to obtain decent medical data there all but collapse until 2022 or 2023. So the rate of vaccination has been in some state of decline starting in 2020.

I also read that they still use live virus vaccines a lot there and the case of polio probably was a result of contamination from waste of live virus vaccine recipients exacerbated by the unsanitary conditions created by the war. The polio virus had to come from somewhere and this is the most likely explanation.

Anyway, it is really frustrating that reporting is so shallow you have to go back and piece together old journal articles and reports (not a ton of Western news articles on mundane issues like vaccination rates in Gaza showed up) to try to understand a seemingly obvious question like how is it possible for the polio vaccination rate to drop so precision so short a time — it’s not like you have to get the polio vaccine annually.

 

[RaiGuy]

Without knowing the details of individual events, I can't really comment, but according to the DoD, the US has moved over 1 million pounds of aid into Gaza, and that is as of May.

Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.

 

[Calheel]

Apparently, RFK Jr is not popular in Gaza

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.

Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.

 

[ZenMode]

Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.

I agree that details matter. I've heard about some individual situations where it was reported that Israel bombed "safe" zones. It was also reported that it wasn't a current safe zone, but a previously designated safe zone. I don't know if that's true. I've also read that Hamas was killing people trying to get aid. There's a lot of info out that and it's not always easy to know what is real and what is fiction.

What I believe, in general, is that Hamas isn't (for reasons I mentioned earlier) concerned about the life of Palestinians. Israel is, but the world is putting almost impossible expectations on them, especially when Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shield. IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher. It seems unlikely, as a rule, that aid isn't getting to Palestinians. Is some not getting where it's supposed to? Sure. There's a big war happening in a small area and bad things are going to happen.

 

[RaiGuy]

Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.

Wow, you sound like the israeli propaganda machine that is trying to gaslight everyone. I am not getting into the debate about the first hospital that was bombed because I have covered that before. Let's say for argument's sake that it was them that bombed that one hospital. You're saying that Israel isn't to blame for bombing the other 35 hospitals in Gaza?What kind of reasoning is that? It's pretty obvious that if you bomb 35 hospitals, you would be the one responsible for the lack of f****** hospitals. Again, you are the one victim blaming.

 

[RaiGuy]

I agree that details matter. I've heard about some individual situations where it was reported that Israel bombed "safe" zones. It was also reported that it wasn't a current safe zone, but a previously designated safe zone. I don't know if that's true. I've also read that Hamas was killing people trying to get aid. There's a lot of info out that and it's not always easy to know what is real and what is fiction.

What I believe, in general, is that Hamas isn't (for reasons I mentioned earlier) concerned about the life of Palestinians. Israel is, but the world is putting almost impossible expectations on them, especially when Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shield. IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher. It seems unlikely, as a rule, that aid isn't getting to Palestinians. Is some not getting where it's supposed to? Sure. There's a big war happening in a small area and bad things are going to happen.

Wow, ok, so the death of over 46k Palestinians is just chalked up to "bad things" happening? Do you feel the same about Oct 7th? Since it is a "war", would those deaths be chalked up to "bad things" happening? If you condemn that, then you must condemn the out of control response by Israel. I have asked this question since the start, and until now, not one person has answered it (as Israel has not stated it), but what is the end game for Israel and how is this onslaught different than all the times they bombed Gaza over the years? How will the results be any different this time? How will killing so many civilians lead to peace? If you were in that position of a Palestinian and your children were dismembered by a bomb, your whole neighborhood demolished, your friends murdered, others arrested and raped, etc... what would you do?

 

[4thgenheel]

Israel would prefer to not kill civilians. Hamas uses civilians as protection because they know Israel is more concerned about Palestinian civilians than Hamas is.

Hamas, and the Palestinians they are endangering, believes that dead civilian will be swept away to paradise, so there's no real reason to care.

you cannot be serious.

israel "would prefer not to kill civilians" but has somehow accidentally killed upwards of 30k of them in 10 months?

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Wow, you sound like the israeli propaganda machine that is trying to gaslight everyone. I am not getting into the debate about the first hospital that was bombed because I have covered that before. Let's say for argument's sake that it was them that bombed that one hospital. You're saying that Israel isn't to blame for bombing the other 35 hospitals in Gaza?What kind of reasoning is that? It's pretty obvious that if you bomb 35 hospitals, you would be the one responsible for the lack of f****** hospitals. Again, you are the one victim blaming.

I'm saying that Hamas is to blame for the hospitals being bombed, as they use hospitals not for medical aid but for military purposes. This has been well-documented throughout this war.

 

[TarSpiel]

IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher.

This is not complex.

Israel is daily confronted with intel that says "If we bomb this spot here, we'll get a valued Hamas target, but we'll probably kill 10 civilians" and they give the go ahead, time after time. That's why the civilian death toll amongst Palestinian non-combatants is off the charts. (And each time they kill one innocent, the chances of radicalizing one of their relatives goes up exponentially)

People need to stop making excuses for Israel. They do tons of things every day that are morally repugnant. We in the west have let them pass without criticism for far too long.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

This is not complex.

Israel is daily confronted with intel that says "If we bomb this spot here, we'll get a valued Hamas target, but we'll probably kill 10 civilians" and they give the go ahead, time after time. That's why the civilian death toll amongst Palestinian non-combatants is off the charts. (And each time they kill one innocent, the chances of radicalizing one of their relatives goes up exponentially)

People need to stop making excuses for Israel. They do tons of things every day that are morally repugnant. We in the west have let them pass without criticism for far too long.

That's how warfare works, particularly in dense urban areas where your enemy boasts about trying to inflate the civilian death toll amongst its own side as highly as possible. The alternative would simply be, "Hamas is here, we can't strike them now or ever, better let them just regroup for another 10/7". You may not like those tactics, but they have been remarkably effective. Hamas has been crippled, is nearly out of power, and is not capable of another 10/7 type attack.

 

[ZenMode]

Wow, ok, so the death of over 46k Palestinians is just chalked up to "bad things" happening? Do you feel the same about Oct 7th? Since it is a "war", would those deaths be chalked up to "bad things" happening? If you condemn that, then you must condemn the out of control response by Israel. I have asked this question since the start, and until now, not one person has answered it (as Israel has not stated it), but what is the end game for Israel and how is this onslaught different than all the times they bombed Gaza over the years? How will the results be any different this time? How will killing so many civilians lead to peace? If you were in that position of a Palestinian and your children were dismembered by a bomb, your whole neighborhood demolished, your friends murdered, others arrested and raped, etc... what would you do?

There are civilian deaths in every war. Nobody wants to see innocent people suffer and die, but it's also unavoidable in war. I'm sure Israel has made mistakes and there's no doubt that there are some bad members of IDF. That's true of any military. Like I said, Hamas is using civilians as shields because they know it will slow Israel down. It slows Israel down because Israel, unlike Hamas, actually care of innocent lives.

Horrifying images of civilian death are what Hamas wants. It helps them win the PR war. Until social media, the visual horrors of war had been largely hidden from the world. That isn't the case now and when people see those images, their only thought is "this has to end!". I agree. Ending the war would be great, but Hamas doesn't appear interested in ending the war.

As far as Israel's end game? I don't know. Only they know. My thought is that, at the very least, they want to decimate Hamas to the point that they will be unable to even attempt another October 7th for a very, very long time because we know, at some point, terrorists will do what terrorists to - terrorize.

 

[Batt Boy]

That's how warfare works, particularly in dense urban areas where your enemy boasts about trying to inflate the civilian death toll amongst its own side as highly as possible. The alternative would simply be, "Hamas is here, we can't strike them now or ever, better let them just regroup for another 10/7". You may not like those tactics, but they have been remarkably effective. Hamas has been crippled, is nearly out of power, and is not capable of another 10/7 type attack.

I think you may overestimate how badly Hamas has been hurt. They still rule Central Gaza with impunity and although their middle management has been almost obliterated elsewhere, there's always a new crop willing to rise up and resist.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

you cannot be serious.

israel "would prefer not to kill civilians" but has somehow accidentally killed upwards of 30k of them in 10 months?

Do you think the United States prefers to not kill civilians? How do you explain the civilian death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I think you may overestimate how badly Hamas has been hurt. They still rule Central Gaza with impunity and although their middle management has been almost obliterated elsewhere, there's always a new crop willing to rise up and resist.

I posted a NYT article several pages back about US intelligence assessments of Hamas's current capabilities. The consensus was that Israel has been much more successful in damaging Hamas than officials anticipated. Now, some of that may be political smoke and mirrors aimed at getting a cease-fire, but still...