Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

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RaiGuy said:
Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.
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Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.
 
RaiGuy said:
Details matter in this situation. They can move 100 million pounds of aid into Gaza, but if people aren't able to get it, then what's the point? Israel keeps telling them to move to "safe" zones, and the people listen to that. Then, Israel will proceed to bomb that "safe" zone. They also keep bombing hospitals, so people can't get the emergency care that they may need. There are so many examples of situations like this.
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I agree that details matter. I've heard about some individual situations where it was reported that Israel bombed "safe" zones. It was also reported that it wasn't a current safe zone, but a previously designated safe zone. I don't know if that's true. I've also read that Hamas was killing people trying to get aid. There's a lot of info out that and it's not always easy to know what is real and what is fiction.

What I believe, in general, is that Hamas isn't (for reasons I mentioned earlier) concerned about the life of Palestinians. Israel is, but the world is putting almost impossible expectations on them, especially when Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shield. IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher. It seems unlikely, as a rule, that aid isn't getting to Palestinians. Is some not getting where it's supposed to? Sure. There's a big war happening in a small area and bad things are going to happen.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Given that one of the hospitals in Gaza was bombed by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and many of the others have been used by Hamas as military facilities, I don’t think that Israel is to blame for the lack of hospitals in Gaza.
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Wow, you sound like the israeli propaganda machine that is trying to gaslight everyone. I am not getting into the debate about the first hospital that was bombed because I have covered that before. Let's say for argument's sake that it was them that bombed that one hospital. You're saying that Israel isn't to blame for bombing the other 35 hospitals in Gaza?What kind of reasoning is that? It's pretty obvious that if you bomb 35 hospitals, you would be the one responsible for the lack of f****** hospitals. Again, you are the one victim blaming.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree that details matter. I've heard about some individual situations where it was reported that Israel bombed "safe" zones. It was also reported that it wasn't a current safe zone, but a previously designated safe zone. I don't know if that's true. I've also read that Hamas was killing people trying to get aid. There's a lot of info out that and it's not always easy to know what is real and what is fiction.

What I believe, in general, is that Hamas isn't (for reasons I mentioned earlier) concerned about the life of Palestinians. Israel is, but the world is putting almost impossible expectations on them, especially when Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shield. IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher. It seems unlikely, as a rule, that aid isn't getting to Palestinians. Is some not getting where it's supposed to? Sure. There's a big war happening in a small area and bad things are going to happen.
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Wow, ok, so the death of over 46k Palestinians is just chalked up to "bad things" happening? Do you feel the same about Oct 7th? Since it is a "war", would those deaths be chalked up to "bad things" happening? If you condemn that, then you must condemn the out of control response by Israel. I have asked this question since the start, and until now, not one person has answered it (as Israel has not stated it), but what is the end game for Israel and how is this onslaught different than all the times they bombed Gaza over the years? How will the results be any different this time? How will killing so many civilians lead to peace? If you were in that position of a Palestinian and your children were dismembered by a bomb, your whole neighborhood demolished, your friends murdered, others arrested and raped, etc... what would you do?
 
ZenMode said:
Israel would prefer to not kill civilians. Hamas uses civilians as protection because they know Israel is more concerned about Palestinian civilians than Hamas is.

Hamas, and the Palestinians they are endangering, believes that dead civilian will be swept away to paradise, so there's no real reason to care.
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you cannot be serious.

israel "would prefer not to kill civilians" but has somehow accidentally killed upwards of 30k of them in 10 months?
 
RaiGuy said:
Wow, you sound like the israeli propaganda machine that is trying to gaslight everyone. I am not getting into the debate about the first hospital that was bombed because I have covered that before. Let's say for argument's sake that it was them that bombed that one hospital. You're saying that Israel isn't to blame for bombing the other 35 hospitals in Gaza?What kind of reasoning is that? It's pretty obvious that if you bomb 35 hospitals, you would be the one responsible for the lack of f****** hospitals. Again, you are the one victim blaming.
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I'm saying that Hamas is to blame for the hospitals being bombed, as they use hospitals not for medical aid but for military purposes. This has been well-documented throughout this war.
 
ZenMode said:
IF Israel was truly unconcerned, the civilian death toll, in such a densely populated area, would be 1000X higher.
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This is not complex.

Israel is daily confronted with intel that says "If we bomb this spot here, we'll get a valued Hamas target, but we'll probably kill 10 civilians" and they give the go ahead, time after time. That's why the civilian death toll amongst Palestinian non-combatants is off the charts. (And each time they kill one innocent, the chances of radicalizing one of their relatives goes up exponentially)

People need to stop making excuses for Israel. They do tons of things every day that are morally repugnant. We in the west have let them pass without criticism for far too long.
 
TarSpiel said:
This is not complex.

Israel is daily confronted with intel that says "If we bomb this spot here, we'll get a valued Hamas target, but we'll probably kill 10 civilians" and they give the go ahead, time after time. That's why the civilian death toll amongst Palestinian non-combatants is off the charts. (And each time they kill one innocent, the chances of radicalizing one of their relatives goes up exponentially)

People need to stop making excuses for Israel. They do tons of things every day that are morally repugnant. We in the west have let them pass without criticism for far too long.
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That's how warfare works, particularly in dense urban areas where your enemy boasts about trying to inflate the civilian death toll amongst its own side as highly as possible. The alternative would simply be, "Hamas is here, we can't strike them now or ever, better let them just regroup for another 10/7". You may not like those tactics, but they have been remarkably effective. Hamas has been crippled, is nearly out of power, and is not capable of another 10/7 type attack.
 
RaiGuy said:
Wow, ok, so the death of over 46k Palestinians is just chalked up to "bad things" happening? Do you feel the same about Oct 7th? Since it is a "war", would those deaths be chalked up to "bad things" happening? If you condemn that, then you must condemn the out of control response by Israel. I have asked this question since the start, and until now, not one person has answered it (as Israel has not stated it), but what is the end game for Israel and how is this onslaught different than all the times they bombed Gaza over the years? How will the results be any different this time? How will killing so many civilians lead to peace? If you were in that position of a Palestinian and your children were dismembered by a bomb, your whole neighborhood demolished, your friends murdered, others arrested and raped, etc... what would you do?
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There are civilian deaths in every war. Nobody wants to see innocent people suffer and die, but it's also unavoidable in war. I'm sure Israel has made mistakes and there's no doubt that there are some bad members of IDF. That's true of any military. Like I said, Hamas is using civilians as shields because they know it will slow Israel down. It slows Israel down because Israel, unlike Hamas, actually care of innocent lives.

Horrifying images of civilian death are what Hamas wants. It helps them win the PR war. Until social media, the visual horrors of war had been largely hidden from the world. That isn't the case now and when people see those images, their only thought is "this has to end!". I agree. Ending the war would be great, but Hamas doesn't appear interested in ending the war.

As far as Israel's end game? I don't know. Only they know. My thought is that, at the very least, they want to decimate Hamas to the point that they will be unable to even attempt another October 7th for a very, very long time because we know, at some point, terrorists will do what terrorists to - terrorize.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
That's how warfare works, particularly in dense urban areas where your enemy boasts about trying to inflate the civilian death toll amongst its own side as highly as possible. The alternative would simply be, "Hamas is here, we can't strike them now or ever, better let them just regroup for another 10/7". You may not like those tactics, but they have been remarkably effective. Hamas has been crippled, is nearly out of power, and is not capable of another 10/7 type attack.
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I think you may overestimate how badly Hamas has been hurt. They still rule Central Gaza with impunity and although their middle management has been almost obliterated elsewhere, there's always a new crop willing to rise up and resist.
 
4thgenheel said:
you cannot be serious.

israel "would prefer not to kill civilians" but has somehow accidentally killed upwards of 30k of them in 10 months?
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Do you think the United States prefers to not kill civilians? How do you explain the civilian death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan?
 
Batt Boy said:
I think you may overestimate how badly Hamas has been hurt. They still rule Central Gaza with impunity and although their middle management has been almost obliterated elsewhere, there's always a new crop willing to rise up and resist.
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I posted a NYT article several pages back about US intelligence assessments of Hamas's current capabilities. The consensus was that Israel has been much more successful in damaging Hamas than officials anticipated. Now, some of that may be political smoke and mirrors aimed at getting a cease-fire, but still...
 
TarSpiel said:
This is not complex.

Israel is daily confronted with intel that says "If we bomb this spot here, we'll get a valued Hamas target, but we'll probably kill 10 civilians" and they give the go ahead, time after time. That's why the civilian death toll amongst Palestinian non-combatants is off the charts. (And each time they kill one innocent, the chances of radicalizing one of their relatives goes up exponentially)

People need to stop making excuses for Israel. They do tons of things every day that are morally repugnant. We in the west have let them pass without criticism for far too long.
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That seems likely to be true. When does that ratio become unacceptable when we know that Hamas doesn't care about civilian lives (I'd bet that most civilians don't care about civilian lives) and is intentionally putting them in harms way?

Hamas killed about 1200 civilians in, what, 8 hours? How does that compare to Israel who has access to weapons far beyond those used by Hamas terrorists on Oct 7?
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I'm saying that Hamas is to blame for the hospitals being bombed, as they use hospitals not for medical aid but for military purposes. This has been well-documented throughout this war.
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By "well-documented", do you mean the fabricated evidence that Israel provided? The one where they referred to a calendar with Hamas members' names on it, but instead were just pointing to the days of the week in Arabic? Or the ones they planted one of their laptops as a Hamas laptop? Nothing is "well-documented" by Israel. And again, as I have asked a million times before, why doesn't Israel let in neutral investigators or media? Is it because they don't want their lies exposed?
 
ZenMode said:
That seems likely to be true. When does that ratio become unacceptable when we know that Hamas doesn't care about civilian lives (I'd bet that most civilians don't care about civilian lives) and is intentionally putting them in harms way?

Hamas killed about 1200 civilians in, what, 8 hours? How does that compare to Israel who has access to weapons far beyond those used by Hamas terrorists on Oct 7?
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nice acknowledgement here that the IDF's standards and operating procedures are no better or more humane than those of a terrorist organization.

IDF = hamas

they are NO better.
 
ZenMode said:
(I'd bet that most civilians don't care about civilian lives)
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What? Are you now blaming the victims for their own deaths? What is this "bet" based off of?

This is what Israel wants people to believe as they continue to dehumanize Palestinians and show that they don't put a value on it because they want to be killed. That's why you see major headlines about the 6 Israelis that were killed, but only a footnote about the 54 Palestinians killed in that same day.
 
4thgenheel said:
the civilian death toll in afghanistan was @ 45k after NEARLY TWO DECADES, not 10 freaking months.

also, y'all keep referring to "war" - which countries are at war? this is not a war.
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How about Iraq?

And this is very clearly a war. Israel is at war against Hamas.
 
RaiGuy said:
By "well-documented", do you mean the fabricated evidence that Israel provided? The one where they referred to a calendar with Hamas members' names on it, but instead were just pointing to the days of the week in Arabic? Or the ones they planted one of their laptops as a Hamas laptop? Nothing is "well-documented" by Israel. And again, as I have asked a million times before, why doesn't Israel let in neutral investigators or media? Is it because they don't want their lies exposed?
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I'm referring to evidence from US intelligence, British intelligence, German intelligence, and the United Nations, for starters. And I find it rich that you question my sources when in the previous thread you accepted and posted wild conspiracy theories pushed by Hamas.
 
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