Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

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Calheel said:
I have plenty of objections to AIPAC and the way it puts its thumb on House primaries. And as the name implies, its existence is entirely connected to supporting a foreign country.

But to write that Israel meddled in American elections by having Americans spend $100 million is saying, in not even a sotto voice, that the Americans who choose to contribute to AIPAC are outsiders, non-Americans. That is particularly offensive given the history of dual loyalties lobbed against Jews.

It would be no different than saying that foreigners were “meddling” in American elections by citing money spent by CAIR. No, that is not foreign meddling. It is Americans spending their own money.

Now, if there is credible evidence that Israel is funding AIPAC, that is a different issue. But Raiguy specifically disclaimed that argument.
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I literally said the donors are American citizens whose interests are aligned with Israel. I didn't say that Israel was funding them. They do, however, work closely with the largest donors.
I also never mentioned anything about Jewish people. Being critical of Israel and pro-Israeli voices has nothing to do with being against Jews. There are many Jews that are against AIPAC and Israel as well.
 
superrific said:
Come on, dude. There absolutely are Muslims out there who want to destroy the West. Just like there are Buddhists out there who want to destroy Muslim populations for the hell of it. And Christians. And Jews.

Hamas preaches hate. It preaches hate in its schools and childhood education materials. Nobody is forcing them to do that. The nakba doesn't require it. The intifada doesn't require it. That's Hamas' choice.

The better response, I think, is that the shules do the same among Jews, and Christian fundamentalists do the same thing here and abroad. Because some people are just haters, and that personality impulse knows no religious boundaries -- not that I've seen.
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I think most of them use religion for their selfish political motives. Most of them are brainwashed and do not understand the religion they represent. Also, each of those groups have their own agendas and are not monolithic.
 
RaiGuy said:
I think most of them use religion for their selfish political motives. Most of them are brainwashed and do not understand the religion they represent. Also, each of those groups have their own agendas and are not monolithic.
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This may be true for the leaders, but not for the followers. You don't convince people to blow themselves up for political gain. They gain nothing when they are dead.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
This may be true for the leaders, but not for the followers. You don't convince people to blow themselves up for political gain. They gain nothing when they are dead.
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Those are the brainwashed ones that I referred to. They are usually the ones that have suffered trauma when they were younger or were groomed/brainwashed at an early age.
 
RaiGuy said:
I literally said the donors are American citizens whose interests are aligned with Israel. I didn't say that Israel was funding them. They do, however, work closely with the largest donors.
I also never mentioned anything about Jewish people. Being critical of Israel and pro-Israeli voices has nothing to do with being against Jews. There are many Jews that are against AIPAC and Israel as well.
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You denied the Americanness of the Americans who donate to AIPAC by saying that it was “Israel” who was doing the meddling. It wasn’t Israel. It was Americans.

AIPAC is an American organization. It is not an Israeli organization. It is not a technicality to get around FARA laws. Americans spending money on American elections do not somehow become non-Americans.

Again, it is completely within bounds to criticize AIPAC and the Americans who donate to AIPAC. But it is out of bounds and offensive to strip these people of their Americanness because you don’t like AIPAC.
 
Given Trump’s comments about Israel, Jews, and Democrats over the past few weeks, I think it’s safe to say the dual loyalty horse has left the barn.
 
Calheel said:
You denied the Americanness of the Americans who donate to AIPAC by saying that it was “Israel” who was doing the meddling. It wasn’t Israel. It was Americans.

AIPAC is an American organization. It is not an Israeli organization. It is not a technicality to get around FARA laws. Americans spending money on American elections do not somehow become non-Americans.

Again, it is completely within bounds to criticize AIPAC and the Americans who donate to AIPAC. But it is out of bounds and offensive to strip these people of their Americanness because you don’t like AIPAC.
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Again, I not once took away their Americanness (whatever that means). I said they are closely aligned with Israel and are pushing pro-Israel Agenda. I mean, they literally sign their tweets with "Being pro-Israel is good policy and good politics." Does that take away their Americanness?
 
RaiGuy said:
Again, I not once took away their Americanness (whatever that means). I said they are closely aligned with Israel and are pushing pro-Israel Agenda. I mean, they literally sign their tweets with "Being pro-Israel is good policy and good politics." Does that take away their Americanness?
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You wrote that Israel meddled with our elections
And you cited AIPAC’s spending for support of your argument. Spending that was funded by Americans, not Israel.

Do you honestly not understand why that is so offensive? You are saying that Americans spending money to influence American politics is “meddling.” Moreover, you are saying that it is Israel doing that meddling. You are denying the Americanness of the AIPAC funders and saying that their actions are the actions of a foreign nation. That is offensive.

And it is particularly so in light of historical attacks on Jews as being more loyal to worldwide Jewishness than to their homeland. These dual loyalties attacks have long been used, which makes your comments all the more offensive.

www.worldjewishcongress.org

Antisemitism defined: Allegations of Dual loyalty - World Jewish Congress

Antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and...
www.worldjewishcongress.org www.worldjewishcongress.org
 
Calheel said:
You wrote that Israel meddled with our elections
And you cited AIPAC’s spending for support of your argument. Spending that was funded by Americans, not Israel.

Do you honestly not understand why that is so offensive? You are saying that Americans spending money to influence American politics is “meddling.” Moreover, you are saying that it is Israel doing that meddling. You are denying the Americanness of the AIPAC funders and saying that their actions are the actions of a foreign nation. That is offensive.
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I mean, they are Americans and they are donating to win elections for candidates that will do what Israel wants. It doesn't matter if the race is democrat or republican, but they will support the one that will pledge their support to Israel. Why is it that politicians are scared to criticize Israel? They know that if they do, they will fight an uphill battle to be reelected. To me, that is more offensive than what you are being offended by. I am offended that these politicians are scared to speak out against a genocide because they will lose their seat. How the hell is it that Trump and Biden (now Harris) will disagree on everything, except for how much they love and support Israel? Why isn't any other ally mentioned in debates?
 
RaiGuy said:
I mean, they are Americans and they are donating to win elections for candidates that will do what Israel wants. It doesn't matter if the race is democrat or republican, but they will support the one that will pledge their support to Israel. Why is it that politicians are scared to criticize Israel? They know that if they do, they will fight an uphill battle to be reelected. To me, that is more offensive than what you are being offended by. I am offended that these politicians are scared to speak out against a genocide because they will lose their seat. How the hell is it that Trump and Biden (now Harris) will disagree on everything, except for how much they love and support Israel? Why isn't any other ally mentioned in debates?
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Please don’t move the goalposts or deflect or both sides. I am not trying to shame you. I am trying to explain it to you.

There are many, many terrible things that have happened since October 7th and you have all rights to be upset. But that doesn’t mean that you should conflate Americans with Israel or that such language isn’t offensive. You can make your same points without engaging in those kind of tropes.
 
Calheel said:
Please don’t move the goalposts or deflect or both sides. I am not trying to shame you. I am trying to explain it to you.

There are many, many terrible things that have happened since October 7th and you have all rights to be upset. But that doesn’t mean that you should conflate Americans with Israel or that such language isn’t offensive. You can make your same points without engaging in those kind of tropes.
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I am just not understanding what is offensive about what I am saying. I said they are Americans that are closely aligned with Israel. What is wrong or offensive with that statement? How would you describe it without it being offensive?
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
This may be true for the leaders, but not for the followers. You don't convince people to blow themselves up for political gain. They gain nothing when they are dead.
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I have a marine friend who was involved in the hunt for Zarqawi in the oughts. Said he was the most evil mfer he'd ever come across. However bad he was originally, he was certainly made a lot worse by the fact that he'd spent years in an underground prison in the Libyan desert.

Al Qaeda would look for young kids who were already messed up in one way or another, then pump them full of heroin and methamphetamines, and put them into a car loaded with bombs and tell them to drive it here or there. It's not like these kids were really all that intentional about what they were doing.
 
RaiGuy said:
The problem is the logistics of the 2 state solution. How do you link West Bank and Gaza? What about all the illegal settlements? Those settlers won't leave without violence and they are just as bad as Hamas.
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If logistics were the only issue then this conflict would be over. I disagree that the "settlers are just as bad as Hamas" - but regardless - Israel already forcibly removed settlers. What settlements would remain and what would be disbanded is a matter for negotiations. The broader point is far more important - namely that both sides are in a "we can win if we wait it out" mode and thus no one is incentivized to negotiate. People who believe in peace must focus on the two state solution because this is the only real path for peace. Israel will never give up the Jewish State and Palestinians will never give up the goal of a Palestinian State, thus discussing a confederation or a secularised Palestine "from the River to the Sea" is a waste of time and energy and costs more Palestinian and Israeli lives.
 
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