Israel Hamas War | IDF Kills peaceful American Protester in West Bank

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heelslegup said:
If VP Harris wishes to distancer herself slightly from the Biden Admin on this issue, she can say 1) Israel was brutally attached and the targets were civilians. 2) Israel, like any country would, responded forcefully to this outragous Hamas action, 3) We need to get rid of Hamas and end the war, 4) Once the war is over, if I am elected I will have the goal of makinbg the two-state solution happen (inclding a demilitarized Independent Palestinian state in WB and Gaza with a multi-national peacekeeping force by the 60th asnniversary of the Six Day wara in June 1967. The US and out allies in the region will press all parties to get the deal done.
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Exactly how do you “get rid of Hamas and end the war?” By killing more civilians? You will never get rid of Hamas by radicalizing the next generation.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Israel has absolutely crossed some lines. And Israel isn't "wiping out everyone in Gaza"....not even close to it. Unfortunately, when you are fighting an enemy that has stated that its goal is to murder every single Jewish person in the area, and that has acted on those intentions with devastating consequences, that enemy (in this case, Hamas) cannot be allowed to continue to exist in any meaningful fashion. Hamas knows this, which is why it deliberately uses schools, hospitals, universities, apartment blocks, etc to conduct military operations. The best thing for Palestinians at this point would be for Hamas to cease to exist. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, but Israel has substantially weakened them.
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I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.
 
RaiGuy said:
I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.
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Israel as a whole hasn't gone too far. There are some instances in which the IDF and/or settlers have gone too far.

After 10/7, Israel had to do something. Hamas represented an existential threat to Israel, and couldn't be simply left alone. So, Israel went into Gaza and after Hamas. Hamas was well-embedded in the civilian infrastructure of Gaza, and had tunnels located underneath most of the Gaza Strip and into Egypt. The war has been brutal, but what else could Israel do? Simply wait for Hamas to launch its next 10/7 as it promised to do over and over again until Israel was destroyed?
 
RaiGuy said:
No one is voting for Trump. However, the way Kamala comes off to them is that she is too arrogant or they are not important enough for her to earn their vote. She just expects them to vote for her because Trump is worse. Imagine people you care for are being mass murdered and starved and someone tells you to wait and see. The problem is that every day we waste waiting is another day that more innocent people die.
No one is playing chicken. Again, it's people that want their voices heard and want the genocide to stop. The real reason Kamala isn't saying much is because she, like most candidates, are terrified of AIPAC.
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She’s not saying much because more people in the US thought Biden was striking the right balance or favoring the Palestinians than people who thought he favored the Israelis. More people thought Biden was right or too far in the other direction than thought he was favoring Israelis too much. Democrats are hesitant to say what protestors want because they 1) don’t fully agree with the protesters and 2) it’s political suicide. How did the rest of the crowd react to how Harris treated the hecklers?

And Harris isn’t afraid of AIPAC. Open secrets has them down for just under $25M in contributions this cycle. In a congressional primary that’s potentially huge. To a presidential candidate that has already raised over $300M in a short time it’s hardly terrifying. AIPAC has shown they are very good at using their money strategically, not that they have this invincible political machine. It’s entirely possible that the US’s decades long positions on Israel aren’t the result of one lobbying group and might be due to politicians actually believing that stuff.

Of course AIPAC’s donors can potentially contribute to other PACs or start their own, but including that in this calculus changes how AIPAC is being used in the argument and not for the better.
 
Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”
www.nytimes.com

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”
www.nytimes.com

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.
 
RaiGuy said:
That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.
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Hamas has been documented using these areas for military activities and has even bragged about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. I don't trust what Hamas says any more than you trust what Israel says.
 
RaiGuy said:
That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.
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Even if there were Hamas operatives there, that doesn’t give Israel the excuse to bomb it to hell. But that’s the whole issue at hand here, isn’t it?

BlueCups thinks that Palestinians are less than human. Palestinian women, children, and elderly don’t matter, so of course they think bombing them is justified.

It’s sick that people in this country continue to justify a genocide with propaganda that is spoon fed to them by a radical right wing government (the very thing a lot of them are afraid of if Trump gets a second term.)

Never again means never again to anyone!
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Hamas has been documented using these areas for military activities and has even bragged about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. I don't trust what Hamas says any more than you trust what Israel says.
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I’m basing my reasoning on actual footage of the aftermath. I’m not going to post it here because it’s very graphic. The amount of children dismembered and brunt to death is sickening. Even if Hamas was supposedly there, this is not justified. Would Hamas be justified in the killings of the festival people if they claimed that Israeli soldiers were there? No? I didn’t think so.
 
RaiGuy said:
I’m basing my reasoning on actual footage of the aftermath. I’m not going to post it here because it’s very graphic. The amount of children dismembered and brunt to death is sickening. Even if Hamas was supposedly there, this is not justified. Would Hamas be justified in the killings of the festival people if they claimed that Israeli soldiers were there? No? I didn’t think so.
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The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.
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That’s also more Israeli propaganda. You say Israel values its civilians but why did they initiate the Hannibal directive on Oct 7th? Why did they kill their own hostages that were waving white flags and speaking in Hebrew? They really valued them there.
I don’t feel like you value Palestinian lies because you seem fine with what Israel is doing because it’s all Hamas’s fault.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”
www.nytimes.com

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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They say this every single time and you slurp it up. A massacre is a massacre, and Israel needs to slow the fuck down.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.
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The human shield argument doesn't work when Israel wants to bomb the human shields just as much as the guys behind them.
 
RaiGuy said:
That’s also more Israeli propaganda. You say Israel values its civilians but why did they initiate the Hannibal directive on Oct 7th? Why did they kill their own hostages that were waving white flags and speaking in Hebrew? They really valued them there.
I don’t feel like you value Palestinian lies because you seem fine with what Israel is doing because it’s all Hamas’s fault.
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They killed their own hostages because they were idiots, not because they wanted to kill them. Friendly fire has been an unfortunate reality of every war.

I’m not fine with civilian deaths. I just know that in a war that is being conducted in a very dense urban environment, they are inevitable…particularly when one side uses its own civilians as bait. That’s why the best thing for all sides would be for this war to end as quickly as possible.
 
Honestly, about the only person who has been even-handed in this tragedy has been the International Court of Justice official who said that by the definition of international law, both senior Hamas and Israeli officals have committed war crimes begining October 7 2023.
These officials will never face consequences given the politics involved but one cannot argue with the ICJ official's statement IMO.
Time for the US and other nations to impose a peace settlement on the parties so this does not keep happening over and over. The vast majprity of Israelis and Palestinians want a two-state solution. Time for the world to put a halt to the extremeists on both sides preventing this from happening.
The blind spot for Biden in all this has been that he rhapsodizes about an Israel led by persons like Golda Meir or Yitzhak Rabin when instead it is led presently by craven extreme opportunists like Benjamin Netanyahy. Putting Bibi in the same league as Meir or Rabin is like comparing Trump or Jimmy Swaggart to Jesus.
 
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farce said:
They say this every single time and you slurp it up. A massacre is a massacre, and Israel needs to slow the fuck down.
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I think the opposite is true. The faster this war ends the sooner life gets better for the Palestinians caught in the middle.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I think the opposite is true. The faster this war ends the sooner life gets better for the Palestinians caught in the middle.
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The Israelis claim they have to destroy Hamas. If that requires eradication of Palestinians in Gaza it appears they are fine with that. And you will be cheerleading the slaughter the whole way.
 
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