Israel Hamas War | Trump threatens “hell to pay” if hostages are not released by Jan 20

[heelslegup]

My take is that for the past 30 years the two greatest impediments to an Israel/Palestinian peace have been: Hamas 65%, Netanyahu 35%. And maybe even longer: Netanyahu was in the Israeli Embassy in the early 1990s and the Bush White House (James Baker mostly) banned him from the White House grounds for trying to scuttle the Oslo negotiations.
Get rid of Hamas,
Netanyahu will never allow a Palestiinian state so US and partnrers will have to 1. impose a oeace settlemement on both parties. The terms are well-known.
2. create independent Palestinian state in wB andf Gaza
3. give the PA control of West Bank and Gaza,
4. create a narrow corridor between wB and Gaza so families can visit
5. insert a robust peace-leeping force in WB and Gaza,
6, demilitarized Palestinian state,
7, On the illegal Israel settlements in the occupied WB, Israel will need to give them up or do a land swap of 10-13% of WB
8, Mutual recognition and full diplomatic relations between Israel and Palestinian state as well as Israel and all Arab states (on the latter, Saudis and Arab states offered this in early 2000s)
Tens oousands of peope have died in this conflict and the US has spent many billions in arming Israel and then a few billion in reconstructing Gaza revery five years or so after another war. Time for ther world to step in and fix things. We have these wars and then people forget the peace process which is the only way to keep this from happening again and again.

 

[RaiGuy]

My take is that for the past 30 years the two greatest impediments to an Israel/Palestinian peace have been: Hamas 65%, Netanyahu 35%. And maybe even longer: Netanyahu was in the Israeli Embassy in the early 1990s and the Bush White House (James Baker mostly) banned him from the White House grounds for trying to scuttle the Oslo negotiations.
Get rid of Hamas,
Netanyahu will never allow a Palestiinian state so US and partnrers will have to impose a oeace settlemement on both parties. The terms are well-known.
create independent Palestinian state in wB andf Gaza
give the PA control of West Bank and Gaza,
create a narrow corridor between wB and Gaza so families can visit
insert a robust peace-leeping force in WB and Gaza,
demilitarized Palestinian state,
On the illegal Israel settlements in the occupied WB, Israel will need to give them up or do a land swap of 10-13% of WB

Tens of thousands of peope have died in this conflict and the US has spent many billions in arming Israel and then a few billion in reconstructing Gaza revery five years or so after another war. Time for ther world to step in and fix things. We have these wars and then people forget the peace process which is the only way to keep this from happening again and again.

IMO, the side with all the power is Israel. When one side is an oppressor and the other is being oppressed, it's in the hands of the oppressor to control any kind of peace options. There can't be peace without justice and equality. As long as Israel dehumanizes and humiliates Palestinians on a daily basis, then there won't be peace. It's not all on Hamas. There isn't Hamas in the West Bank and it's just as bad. Hamas is a result of the oppression and occupation, not the cause. (Again, not removing fault from them, but just pointing it out). Hamas will lose support and power once Israel changes their policies against Palestinians. Like now, I bet the support for Hamas has grown exponentially because if what Israel is doing in Gaza. You're never going to support the people bombing you.

Also, here is a good video from John Oliver about the conditions in the West Bank



The majority of people here are unaware what is really happening there because Israel is so good at hiding it and they put so much money in the propaganda machine. Also, they spent $100 million meddling in our elections (via AIPAC) and in return, the people they got elected approved $26 billion in aid to Israel. Not a bad ROI there. The reason that is legal is because the donations to AIPAC are done via American citizens, however, their interests are completely with Israel. People worry about Russian interference, but Israel has a much bigger effect and control. That's also why the US will never be an unbiased mediator in any peace process.

 

[Batt Boy]

IMO, the side with all the power is Israel. When one side is an oppressor and the other is being oppressed, it's in the hands of the oppressor to control any kind of peace options. There can't be peace without justice and equality. As long as Israel dehumanizes and humiliates Palestinians on a daily basis, then there won't be peace. It's not all on Hamas. There isn't Hamas in the West Bank and it's just as bad. Hamas is a result of the oppression and occupation, not the cause. (Again, not removing fault from them, but just pointing it out). Hamas will lose support and power once Israel changes their policies against Palestinians. Like now, I bet the support for Hamas has grown exponentially because if what Israel is doing in Gaza. You're never going to support the people bombing you.

Also, here is a good video from John Oliver about the conditions in the West Bank



The majority of people here are unaware what is really happening there because Israel is so good at hiding it and they put so much money in the propaganda machine. Also, they spent $100 million meddling in our elections (via AIPAC) and in return, the people they got elected approved $26 billion in aid to Israel. Not a bad ROI there. The reason that is legal is because the donations to AIPAC are done via American citizens, however, their interests are completely with Israel. People worry about Russian interference, but Israel has a much bigger effect and control. That's also why the US will never be an unbiased mediator in any peace process.

Every country has interests in our election and many spend to influence who's in legislative power. I detest that reality but if it comes down to being influenced by a country with some form of representative government, where homosexuals aren't killed vs religious whackos who kill people based on their sexuality and treat their women like property, I'll go with Israel.

 

[p5mmr9]

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. Hamas took over. The strife endured. If Israel ended the occupation in the West Bank it is very likely a similar situation would arise from that disengagement.

There are too many with power holding on to the idea that "we will win" - and that's on both sides. This idea devalues compromise and makes the prospect for real peace almost impossible. This is why the two state solution is the ONLY solution...and it is the only solution that should be referenced by those who want peace.

(I keep trying to quote RaiGuy with this reply but it's not working - this is a reply to RaiGuy - not to Batt Boy)

 

[mpaer]

What type of Govt would the world like to establish (impose) in the new "Palestine"
What type would they like? I have no idea

 

[Batt Boy]

What type of Govt would the world like to establish (impose) in the new "Palestine"
What type would they like? I have no idea

I know they have their issues, as all countries do, but I'd like to see something like Turkey has. Secular constitution. Representative executive and constitutional type republic. Multi party. Separation of powers. Something where the people have a chance to flourish.

 

[RaiGuy]

Every country has interests in our election and many spend to influence who's in legislative power. I detest that reality but if it comes down to being influenced by a country with some form of representative government, where homosexuals aren't killed vs religious whackos who kill people based on their sexuality and treat their women like property, I'll go with Israel.

You mean the country that injected Ethiopian Jews with birth control without their consent? The country that allows sexual predators to flee and live in Israel for protection? The country that has killed 15,000 children in the past few months?

 

[Lando]

My take is that for the past 30 years the two greatest impediments to an Israel/Palestinian peace have been: Hamas 65%, Netanyahu 35%. And maybe even longer: Netanyahu was in the Israeli Embassy in the early 1990s and the Bush White House (James Baker mostly) banned him from the White House grounds for trying to scuttle the Oslo negotiations.
Get rid of Hamas,
Netanyahu will never allow a Palestiinian state so US and partnrers will have to impose a oeace settlemement on both parties. The terms are well-known.
create independent Palestinian state in wB andf Gaza
give the PA control of West Bank and Gaza,
create a narrow corridor between wB and Gaza so families can visit
insert a robust peace-leeping force in WB and Gaza,
demilitarized Palestinian state,
On the illegal Israel settlements in the occupied WB, Israel will need to give them up or do a land swap of 10-13% of WB

Tens of thousands of peope have died in this conflict and the US has spent many billions in arming Israel and then a few billion in reconstructing Gaza revery five years or so after another war. Time for ther world to step in and fix things. We have these wars and then people forget the peace process which is the only way to keep this from happening again and again.

We’ll break that cycle by not reconstructing Gaza. We discuss how a two state solution would work when the people involved don’t want one.

 

[RaiGuy]

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. Hamas took over. The strife endured. If Israel ended the occupation in the West Bank it is very likely a similar situation would arise from that disengagement.

There are too many with power holding on to the idea that "we will win" - and that's on both sides. This idea devalues compromise and makes the prospect for real peace almost impossible. This is why the two state solution is the ONLY solution...and it is the only solution that should be referenced by those who want peace.

(I keep trying to quote RaiGuy with this reply but it's not working - this is a reply to RaiGuy - not to Batt Boy)

The problem is the logistics of the 2 state solution. How do you link West Bank and Gaza? What about all the illegal settlements? Those settlers won't leave without violence and they are just as bad as Hamas.

 

[Batt Boy]

You mean the country that injected Ethiopian Jews with birth control without their consent? The country that allows sexual predators to flee and live in Israel for protection? The country that has killed 15,000 children in the past few months?

The US purposely infective southern Blacks with disease. Horrible. Yet I think the US should continue to exist. I hope the people responsible suffered retribution. I hope sexual predators worldwide suffer horribly. I mourn for the innocents killed in Gaza. I blame Hamas and their enablers.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Writing off Hamas as simply a byproduct of Israel is not the answer. Hamas is an Islamist fundamentalist group that is prone to terror, but so is ISIS. So was Al Qaeda. So is the current Iranian regime. Israel is their common enemy, but Israel is just one of their common enemies. If the day ever came that Israel ceased to exist, those groups would simply turn their attention to the west and the rest of us. Remember 9/11? Remember London, Paris, Spain, Bali?

The fact of the matter is that Israel is here to stay. Were mistakes made in 1946 and 1947? Sure, in hindsight. That's the way history works. But just as we're not going to force the United States to cease to exist to apologize for our sins against the Native Americans we displaced or Blacks we brought here in chains, Israel is not going to succumb to fundamentalist plots to erase it from existence.

Hamas has to go. Bibi will go in time. Two states are essential. But a strong Israel, with diplomatic relations with the Saudis, is what that region needs.

 

[Calheel]

IMO, the side with all the power is Israel. When one side is an oppressor and the other is being oppressed, it's in the hands of the oppressor to control any kind of peace options. There can't be peace without justice and equality. As long as Israel dehumanizes and humiliates Palestinians on a daily basis, then there won't be peace. It's not all on Hamas. There isn't Hamas in the West Bank and it's just as bad. Hamas is a result of the oppression and occupation, not the cause. (Again, not removing fault from them, but just pointing it out). Hamas will lose support and power once Israel changes their policies against Palestinians. Like now, I bet the support for Hamas has grown exponentially because if what Israel is doing in Gaza. You're never going to support the people bombing you.

Also, here is a good video from John Oliver about the conditions in the West Bank



The majority of people here are unaware what is really happening there because Israel is so good at hiding it and they put so much money in the propaganda machine. Also, they spent $100 million meddling in our elections (via AIPAC) and in return, the people they got elected approved $26 billion in aid to Israel. Not a bad ROI there. The reason that is legal is because the donations to AIPAC are done via American citizens, however, their interests are completely with Israel. People worry about Russian interference, but Israel has a much bigger effect and control. That's also why the US will never be an unbiased mediator in any peace process.

This is very offensive to say that Israel spent $100 million “meddling” in our elections, when you are referring to money spent by Americans.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

This is very offensive to say that Israel spent $100 million “meddling” in our elections, when you are referring to money spent by Americans.

Not to mention we "meddled" in Israel's elections last fall when we suggested that they call an early election to force Bibi out. We can't exactly say "don't mess with our politics but we're going to heavily mess with yours."

 

[Calheel]

Not to mention we "meddled" in Israel's elections last fall when we suggested that they call an early election to force Bibi out. We can't exactly say "don't mess with our politics but we're going to heavily mess with yours."

All countries meddle with foreign elections. I’m not taking issue with that.

What is highly offensive is RaiGuy othering pro-Israeli Americans - as if those voices aren’t true Americans. He can certainly disagree with their views without suggesting those people are not true Americans.

 

[RaiGuy]

Writing off Hamas as simply a byproduct of Israel is not the answer. Hamas is an Islamist fundamentalist group that is prone to terror, but so is ISIS. So was Al Qaeda. So is the current Iranian regime. Israel is their common enemy, but Israel is just one of their common enemies. If the day ever came that Israel ceased to exist, those groups would simply turn their attention to the west and the rest of us. Remember 9/11? Remember London, Paris, Spain, Bali?

The fact of the matter is that Israel is here to stay. Were mistakes made in 1946 and 1947? Sure, in hindsight. That's the way history works. But just as we're not going to force the United States to cease to exist to apologize for our sins against the Native Americans we displaced or Blacks we brought here in chains, Israel is not going to succumb to fundamentalist plots to erase it from existence.

Hamas has to go. Bibi will go in time. Two states are essential. But a strong Israel, with diplomatic relations with the Saudis, is what that region needs.

I am sure you don't mean it, but your post comes off as Islamophobic. You make it sound like that there are Muslims out there that just want to destroy the west for the hell of it. However, you are ignoring all the events beforehand that lead to these extremist groups to exist.

"Were mistakes made in 1946 and 1947? Sure, in hindsight"
I like how ethnic cleansing is considered a mistake. Also, Israel is still making "mistakes" today. Their treatment is Palestinians is horrific and they are operating an apartheid state.
I'm not saying to wipe out Israel, but they need some large scale changes to make peace in the region and for them to survive long term.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I am sure you don't mean it, but your post comes off as Islamophobic. You make it sound like that there are Muslims out there that just want to destroy the west for the hell of it. However, you are ignoring all the events beforehand that lead to these extremist groups to exist.

"Were mistakes made in 1946 and 1947? Sure, in hindsight"
I like how ethnic cleansing is considered a mistake. Also, Israel is still making "mistakes" today. Their treatment is Palestinians is horrific and they are operating an apartheid state.
I'm not saying to wipe out Israel, but they need some large scale changes to make peace in the region and for them to survive long term.

There are. I'm not saying that the majority of them do but if you listen to the rhetoric that comes out of groups like ISIS, Daesh, Al Qaeda, Hamas, they make it very clear that they want to literally kill anyone who isn't an adherent to their particular brand of Islam. This includes other Muslims. And they are more than just talk, as thousands of terrorist attacks across the globe in the past two and a half decades have demonstrated.

 

[superrific]

What is highly offensive is RaiGuy othering pro-Israeli Americans - as if those voices aren’t true Americans. He can certainly disagree with their views without suggesting those people are not true Americans.

In fairness, AIPAC is a bit of a special case. Not that I disagree with your conclusion that it's fundamentally mistaken to treat AIPAC as an agent of a foreign government, AIPAC is unusually closely aligned with a foreign government in a way that is unique among large, politically powerful groups (though I suppose this depends on what is meant by politically powerful). Plus, AIPAC was involved in espionage against the U.S., so there's that.

The point is that AIPAC *looks* like a foreign agent on the surface. That doesn't mean it is; to the contrary, AIPAC is, AFAIK, scrupulous about documentation and compliance with laws (the espionage scandal notwithstanding; there's no evidence that was approved or know to higher-ups). So I would not call it "highly offensive" to refer to it that way. It depends if the person knows what AIPAC is and does, and how it relates to US law. If so, then yes. If not, then they are simply mistaken, in my view.

 

[superrific]

I am sure you don't mean it, but your post comes off as Islamophobic. You make it sound like that there are Muslims out there that just want to destroy the west for the hell of it. However, you are ignoring all the events beforehand that lead to these extremist groups to exist.

Come on, dude. There absolutely are Muslims out there who want to destroy the West. Just like there are Buddhists out there who want to destroy Muslim populations for the hell of it. And Christians. And Jews.

Hamas preaches hate. It preaches hate in its schools and childhood education materials. Nobody is forcing them to do that. The nakba doesn't require it. The intifada doesn't require it. That's Hamas' choice.

The better response, I think, is that the shules do the same among Jews, and Christian fundamentalists do the same thing here and abroad. Because some people are just haters, and that personality impulse knows no religious boundaries -- not that I've seen.

 

[mpaer]

Come on, dude. There absolutely are Muslims out there who want to destroy the West. Just like there are Buddhists out there who want to destroy Muslim populations for the hell of it. And Christians. And Jews.

Hamas preaches hate. It preaches hate in its schools and childhood education materials. Nobody is forcing them to do that. The nakba doesn't require it. The intifada doesn't require it. That's Hamas' choice.

The better response, I think, is that the shules do the same among Jews, and Christian fundamentalists do the same thing here and abroad. Because some people are just haters, and that personality impulse knows no religious boundaries -- not that I've seen.

Quakers?

 

[Calheel]

In fairness, AIPAC is a bit of a special case. Not that I disagree with your conclusion that it's fundamentally mistaken to treat AIPAC as an agent of a foreign government, AIPAC is unusually closely aligned with a foreign government in a way that is unique among large, politically powerful groups (though I suppose this depends on what is meant by politically powerful). Plus, AIPAC was involved in espionage against the U.S., so there's that.

The point is that AIPAC *looks* like a foreign agent on the surface. That doesn't mean it is; to the contrary, AIPAC is, AFAIK, scrupulous about documentation and compliance with laws (the espionage scandal notwithstanding; there's no evidence that was approved or know to higher-ups). So I would not call it "highly offensive" to refer to it that way. It depends if the person knows what AIPAC is and does, and how it relates to US law. If so, then yes. If not, then they are simply mistaken, in my view.

I have plenty of objections to AIPAC and the way it puts its thumb on House primaries. And as the name implies, its existence is entirely connected to supporting a foreign country.

But to write that Israel meddled in American elections by having Americans spend $100 million is saying, in not even a sotto voice, that the Americans who choose to contribute to AIPAC are outsiders, non-Americans. That is particularly offensive given the history of dual loyalties lobbed against Jews.

It would be no different than saying that foreigners were “meddling” in American elections by citing money spent by CAIR. No, that is not foreign meddling. It is Americans spending their own money.

Now, if there is credible evidence that Israel is funding AIPAC, that is a different issue. But Raiguy specifically disclaimed that argument.