Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[TarSpiel]

That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.

Nobody is arguing that Hamas isn't part of the problem.

Who are you talking to?

 

[heelslegup]

The major impediments to peace since 1995 have been
1) Hamas
2) Netanyahu/Likud/religious extremists/settlers

The PLO and Palestinian Authrity accepted Israel in 1993 and have honored that since.
In the 1995 Israeli election, Netanyahu was going to lose to Yitzhak Rabin, who was a former general who wanted to close the peace deal with the PA and had the bona fides to do so. Netnyahu's inceniary campaign rhetoric inspired the finatic who assassinated Rabin. Peres, who was seen as weak, stepped in as replacement, Hamas did a few suicide bombings and
Netanyahy won.

Hamas and Netanyahu have been somewhat tied at the hip ever since. Netanyahy does not care about Gaza, only the WB. He needs Hamas around so he can claim he cannot give up WB.

Need to
1)sideline Hamas and Netanyahu,
2) put the PA in charge of Gaza in addition to WB
3) create and independent Pal state in WB and Gza,
4) end Israeli occupation of WB, Israel gives up its illegal settlement on WB or does mutally-agreed land swap with Pals,
5) insert a robust peace-keeping force
6) mutual recog between Israel and Pals, Israel and Arab states along the lines of what the Arab peace plan has long offered
7) have the world impose the peace settlement. The terms are well-known.

Otherwise, we will be rigbht back here in a few years.

 

[RaiGuy]

That’s one of the problems. The other problem is that Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians there elected a known terror group to govern them. Instead of using tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to make Gaza a better place, that group instead diverted that money to building secret tunnels and buying tens of thousands of missiles to fire at Israel. Then that group launched a massive terror attack, murdering over a thousand Israelis and kidnapping hundreds more. When Israel responded, that group did what it always does and used Palestinian civilians as human shields in order to maximize martyrdom for their PR battle while its leaders bought Lamborghinis and live in luxury in Qatar.

Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.

When they elected Hamas in, what was it, 2008?

When the majority of the residents of Gaza were either not yet born or still infants.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

Also, the human shield argument is just BS now. When Israel snipes children, are they aiming for the fictional Hamas member behind them? When they carpet bomb a refugee tent city, is that justified if Israel claims one Hamas member may be there? Where the hell are the civilians supposed to go?

And speaking of human shields, why don’t you criticize Israel for using Palestinian prisoners as human shields. They literally chain them to their vehicles as a shield. You continue to make it seem like Israel is the victim while the Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because they elected Hamas. Again, with that reasoning, Hamas can say they’re justified for Oct 7th because Israelis elected Netanyahu who has more blood on his hands than Hamas. Make it make sense, because I don’t get it.

The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.

 

[superrific]

Let me get this straight. Israel slaughtering over 40k is justified because of Oct 7th, right?
With that reasoning, Hamas can say that Oct 7th was justified because everything that happened before Oct 7th?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

 

[farce©]

It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.

That is not at all clear. Quite the opposite seems true from my observations.

 

[RaiGuy]

The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so. Hamas has openly stated that their goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. That’s exactly why they use hospitals, schools, and residential areas as military command posts and weapons depots. Hell, they blew up their own hospital early in the war and tried to blame Israel for it.

Can you name me a single major war that didn’t have civilian casualties? It is very clear that Israel is not as a nation intentionally targeting civilians…if so, a lot more than 20,000 would have been killed after nearly a year of war now. On the flip side, if Hamas had control of Israel’s military weapons and technology, the Israeli death toll would likely be in the hundreds of thousands by now.

I agree with you that individual Israeli military units or soldiers have committed atrocities. That is an unfortunate reality of war. But if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would not be nearly as generous, as 10/7 demonstrated.

Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Are we back to saying Hamas blew up the hospital?? Israel blew it up along with every damn hospital in Gaza. They were just trying to hide it initially but now they don’t give a shit.

Also, the death toll is at least over 40,000, not 20,000. Israel is leveling Gaza and there’s nothing you can say that will justify that. Using the argument that it’s fine because Hamas would do worse doesn’t make sense. Since the beginning, I have asked how Israel plans to achieve its goals, and I have yet to hear an answer. Saying that they won’t finish until Hamas is eliminated is absurd, because, first, how will they know when they’re all dead, and second, doing that much damage will just lead to more groups like Hamas. Think about this, 18,000 kids have been orphaned during this war and living on their own. Israel continues to destroy their future as well. So, do you think they will grow up and abide by Israel’s hostilities and occupation? It’s been proven over and over and this method doesn’t work. Israel went in to this war with one thing in mind, they want to wipe out Gaza and take control.

And to say individual Israeli units have committed atrocities is ridiculous. They are encouraged to do that. They don’t get punished for doing it. They even released the soldiers that were responsible for raping Palestinian prisoners because of the outcry from the settlers. To believe Israel has the moral high ground is just completely false.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up the hospital, as was confirmed by US, British, and European intelligence. Israel has committed atrocities in this war, but that hospital explosion was not one of them.

I posted a NYT article a few pages back that stated that US intelligence believe that the war in Gaza has crippled Hamas much more than officials believed was possible last October. They stated that they don’t believe that Hamas will be capable of another 10/7 attack for the foreseeable future and that Hamas has even offered to stop governing in Gaza. That’s essentially what Israel’s stated goal was at the beginning of this war which means that their offensive has been effective. At this point a cease fire is actually feasible and hopefully for all sides involved it happens quickly.

With regard to the 20,000 versus 40,000 figure, I was referring to civilians killed and not the overall number of people killed in Gaza. Of course the 20k combatant figure is up for debate as it varies significantly depending on your source.

 

[TarSpiel]

The civilian casualties are as much on Hamas as they are on Israel, if not more so.

That's about the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard. Right up there with "Look what you made me do to you"

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

That's about the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard. Right up there with "Look what you made me do to you"

Take that up with Hamas, they have stated as much.

 

[TarSpiel]

Take that up with Hamas, they have stated as much.

Hamas said, "The civilian casualties are on us, even more so than they are on Israel"

Are you really that stupid?

 

[RaiGuy]

Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up the hospital, as was confirmed by US, British, and European intelligence. Israel has committed atrocities in this war, but that hospital explosion was not one of them.

I posted a NYT article a few pages back that stated that US intelligence believe that the war in Gaza has crippled Hamas much more than officials believed was possible last October. They stated that they don’t believe that Hamas will be capable of another 10/7 attack for the foreseeable future and that Hamas has even offered to stop governing in Gaza. That’s essentially what Israel’s stated goal was at the beginning of this war which means that their offensive has been effective. At this point a cease fire is actually feasible and hopefully for all sides involved it happens quickly.

With regard to the 20,000 versus 40,000 figure, I was referring to civilians killed and not the overall number of people killed in Gaza. Of course the 20k combatant figure is up for debate as it varies significantly depending on your source.

All of those were basing their intelligence on what Israel provided, which turned out to be fabricated. Hamas might be temporarily crippled, but they have the best recruiting tool they could ask for. You can’t get rid of a group like that using heavy violence against civilians.

The 20,000 number is definitely off. There have been nearly 20k children alone that have been killed. What Israel wants you to believe is that every man over 18 is part of Hamas. They keep feeding lying and the west keeps repeating their lies. Again, they can allow neutral investigators and media in to reveal the truth, but they ban them from entering and they target/kill the journalists that are in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than any other “war” in history.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Hamas said, "The civilian casualties are on us, even more so than they are on Israel"

Are you really that stupid?

Hamas has stated that their goal is to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties because their martyrdom helps their PR battle. Which is why they do things like strap suicide bombs to children, or launch rockets from schools, or use hospitals as command centers, and so on.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

All of those were basing their intelligence on what Israel provided, which turned out to be fabricated. Hamas might be temporarily crippled, but they have the best recruiting tool they could ask for. You can’t get rid of a group like that using heavy violence against civilians.

The 20,000 number is definitely off. There have been nearly 20k children alone that have been killed. What Israel wants you to believe is that every man over 18 is part of Hamas. They keep feeding lying and the west keeps repeating their lies. Again, they can allow neutral investigators and media in to reveal the truth, but they ban them from entering and they target/kill the journalists that are in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than any other “war” in history.

No, they based their intelligence on a lot of factors including forensic photo and video analysis of the scene which showed a lack of any type of crater and damage not consistent with any Israeli munition but instead consistent with the thousands of rockets that Hamas and PIJ had been firing at Israel and which had been known to fall short in the past.

Many of the “journalists” killed have been Hamas members, a fact that Israel has exposed repeatedly during this war.

 

[RaiGuy]

No, they based their intelligence on a lot of factors including forensic photo and video analysis of the scene which showed a lack of any type of crater and damage not consistent with any Israeli munition but instead consistent with the thousands of rockets that Hamas and PIJ had been firing at Israel and which had been known to fall short in the past.

Many of the “journalists” killed have been Hamas members, a fact that Israel has exposed repeatedly during this war.

That is complete bullshit. Anytime Israel wants to justify its killings, they just throw Hamas accusations without any shred of proof. They said that the UNRWA was flooded with Hamas members, and it was later revealed, as usual, that it was a complete fabrication.

As for the hospital attack, Israel has different bombs that they use. One of them blows up before impact to increase damage and it doesn’t leave a crater like the others. Again, if they have nothing to hide, allow investigators to come in and do their job.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

That is complete bullshit. Anytime Israel wants to justify its killings, they just throw Hamas accusations without any shred of proof. They said that the UNRWA was flooded with Hamas members, and it was later revealed, as usual, that it was a complete fabrication.

As for the hospital attack, Israel has different bombs that they use. One of them blows up before impact to increase damage and it doesn’t leave a crater like the others. Again, if they have nothing to hide, allow investigators to come in and do their job.

US, European and Australian intel independently corroborated that Israel had nothing to do with the hospital explosion that killed 2,000….err….1,000…..err….maybe 50 people. No missile fragments, no crater, no visible damage to the hospital aside from broken glass, PIJ rocket launched towards the hospital just before the explosion, etc. I’ll take their words for it over Hamas’s. If it is good enough for the Pentagon it is good enough for me.

 

[TarSpiel]

US, European and Australian intel independently corroborated that Israel had nothing to do with the hospital explosion that killed 2,000….err….1,000…..err….maybe 50 people. No missile fragments, no crater, no visible damage to the hospital aside from broken glass, PIJ rocket launched towards the hospital just before the explosion, etc. I’ll take their words for it over Hamas’s. If it is good enough for the Pentagon it is good enough for me.

Are you unable to see two sides of an issue, or can you in theory see both but choose not to?

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Are you unable to see two sides of an issue, or can you in theory see both but choose not to?

Some issues have two sides. Some issues are cut and dry. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has numerous sides. This particular incident was pretty cut and dry, though.

 

[RaiGuy]

Some issues have two sides. Some issues are cut and dry. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has numerous sides. This particular incident was pretty cut and dry, though.

Really? Cut and dry? Again, you still haven’t responded to this, why if Israel has nothing to hide are they blocking third party investigators and media? Also, as I stated before, they use bombs that don’t create craters (made in the USA). They also 100% fabricated a recording that they claimed was a call between IJ members that was laughably fake. The accents aren’t right and the whole conversation sounded staged. It’s similar to the evidence about the underground tunnel where the soldier was pointing to a calendar saying that it was a name of Hamas members when it was clearly just the days of the week.
And you’re defending this one hospital attack, but again, what about every other hospital and school in Gaza? Hamas can’t operate everywhere. There were reports that maybe only 2% of the population was Hamas, yet Israel has destroyed or damaged almost all the infrastructure in Gaza because they claim Hamas use it. If you believe that to be true, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also, you never answered the question I asked a while ago about your background with that region.