Israel in our Politics

[MendotoManteo]

Forgive me if something of this nature is already a thread but I did not find one in my search.

What say you about the influence of Israel and Israeli interests in American politics?

Curious your thoughts.

 

[Rock]

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[05C40]

Not accusing anyone of anything. Not making a self-confession. But anytime the topic of Israel arises, the issue of antisemitism also arises. I honestly don't know how to deal with this. As such, I seldom comment on Israel.

But I really dislike Netanyahu. I think Netanyahu is bad for Israel, bad for the United States, and bad for the Middle East. But in my own mind I am not now, nor have I ever been antisemitic. I am proud that the United States has helped Israel survive. It would be easy for me to say that Israel overreacted in both the Gaza Strip and for the past couple of decades in Lebanon. But in both the Gaza Strip and Lebanon, Arab extremists have destroyed both countries by repeatedly provoking Israeli attacks. When I was growing up--and I swear I am not making this up--Lebanon was known as the "Switzerland of the Middle East," where Christians, Jews, and Muslims co-existed in peace, harmony, and prosperity. And yet today, Lebanon is just another flaming pile of feces in the Middle East. I think Israel dropped the ball on the Gaza Strip. Given the length of time Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, I believe Israel could have fostered the rise of a merchantile class that could have been an effective counter-weight to Arab Nationalists. But, instead, when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, they left behind a flaming dumpster fire that provided a perfect breeding ground for Arab extremism.

But my final thoughts on this matter are that as long as Netanyahu is calling the shots in Israel, I do not believe Israel will achieve lasting peace with its Arab Neighbors. And as long as Arab countries in the Middle East allow Arab Nationalists to control foreign policy decisions, those countries will never prosper, will continue to be attacked by Israel, and will continue to be seen as too risky for Western investments.

PS: I don't know what Israel could have done differently in the West Bank. But clearly the strategy they have pursued in the West Bank has been a disaster for both Israel's reputation in the World and for the West Bank.

PPS: I definitely think that Israel should stop exempting Ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects from service in the military. Nothing like service in the military to slap some rational thinking in the Ultra-Conservatives everywhere in the world.

 

[finesse]

Not accusing anyone of anything. Not making a self-confession. But anytime the topic of Israel arises, the issue of antisemitism also arises. I honestly don't know how to deal with this. As such, I seldom comment on Israel.

But I really dislike Netanyahu. I think Netanyahu is bad for Israel, bad for the United States, and bad for the Middle East. But in my own mind I am not now, nor have I ever been antisemitic. I am proud that the United States has helped Israel survive. It would be easy for me to say that Israel overreacted in both the Gaza Strip and for the past couple of decades in Lebanon. But in both the Gaza Strip and Lebanon, Arab extremists have destroyed both countries by repeatedly provoking Israeli attacks. When I was growing up--and I swear I am not making this up--Lebanon was known as the "Switzerland of the Middle East," where Christians, Jews, and Muslims co-existed in peace, harmony, and prosperity. And yet today, Lebanon is just another flaming pile of feces in the Middle East. I think Israel dropped the ball on the Gaza Strip. Given the length of time Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, I believe Israel could have fostered the rise of a merchantile class that could have been an effective counter-weight to Arab Nationalists. But, instead, when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, they left behind a flaming dumpster fire that provided a perfect breeding ground for Arab extremism.

But my final thoughts on this matter are that as long as Netanyahu is calling the shots in Israel, I do not believe Israel will achieve lasting peace with its Arab Neighbors. And as long as Arab countries in the Middle East allow Arab Nationalists to control foreign policy decisions, those countries will never prosper, will continue to be attacked by Israel, and will continue to be seen as too risky for Western investments.

PS: I don't know what Israel could have done differently in the West Bank. But clearly the strategy they have pursued in the West Bank has been a disaster for both Israel's reputation in the World and for the West Bank.

PPS: I definitely think that Israel should stop exempting Ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects from service in the military. Nothing like service in the military to slap some rational thinking in the Ultra-Conservatives everywhere in the world.

You make some good points but none of them are really connected to the why and how we have been Israel's catspaw for so long and so many times.

 

[sunnyheel]

“What say you about the influence of Israel and Israeli interests in American politics?”

In a word: toxic.

The alignment between the US and Israel worked well enough when Israel was the plucky democratic striver. Once US support shifted to co-dependency and then into a parasitic one, backed by the enormous supply of the mother’s milk of US politics $, that factor combined with the capture of the Israeli culture and government by radical ethno-religio-nationalist forces created what is essentially a fascist state of Israel.

The problem is that while everyone knows what we have created is a tragedy, the lucre of the relationship prevents politicians from resetting. We’re stuck in a richly well-deserved doom loop, papered over by military forces.

 

[finesse]

“What say you about the influence of Israel and Israeli interests in American politics?”

In a word: toxic.

The alignment between the US and Israel worked well enough when Israel was the plucky democratic striver. Once US support shifted to co-dependency and then into a parasitic one, backed by the enormous supply of the mother’s milk of US politics $, that factor combined with the capture of the Israeli culture and government by radical ethno-religio-nationalist forces created what is essentially a fascist state of Israel.

The problem is that while everyone knows what we have created is a tragedy, the lucre of the relationship prevents politicians from resetting. We’re stuck in a richly well-deserved doom loop, papered over by military forces.

There's a lot caused by the religious heretics in the US who love the idea of Israel as a signal of the Second Coming while caring nothing about the Jews themselves or their neighbors. They need Israel to exist for the sake of their own delusions.

 

[Batt Boy]

The long game remains Iran. Because of that, the toxicity of the US/Israeli relationship, as Sunny has pointed out, remains maddeningly enduring. The Iranian peoples, despite their regime's public zealotry, are deeply pragmatic. I fear they will suffer much more before a reset occurs. Once done, I see a fundamental reset of our relationship with Tel Aviv.

 

[Batt Boy]

There's a lot caused by the religious heretics in the US who love the idea of Israel as a signal of the Second Coming while caring nothing about the Jews themselves or their neighbors. They need Israel to exist for the sake of their own delusions.

And that cohort is almost entirely Fox News watching, evangelical anti-vaxers.

 

[Duke Mu]

The long game remains Iran. Because of that, the toxicity of the US/Israeli relationship, as Sunny has pointed out, remains maddeningly enduring. The Iranian peoples, despite their regime's public zealotry, are deeply pragmatic. I fear they will suffer much more before a reset occurs. Once done, I see a fundamental reset of our relationship with Tel Aviv.

Excellent point. If there is/was going to be regime change assistance from the inside was the way forward. Iranians/Persians are well educated and are capable want a democracy, whereas Iraq and the Arab kingdoms, not so much. The Iranian people do seem like a pawn in all this.

Keep in mind that the Saudis have an interest in limiting Iranian Mullah power. Religion (Sunni vs. Shia) and deep historical Arab vs. Persian friction goes back millenia.

 

[Duke Mu]

“What say you about the influence of Israel and Israeli interests in American politics?”

In a word: toxic.

The alignment between the US and Israel worked well enough when Israel was the plucky democratic striver. Once US support shifted to co-dependency and then into a parasitic one, backed by the enormous supply of the mother’s milk of US politics $, that factor combined with the capture of the Israeli culture and government by radical ethno-religio-nationalist forces created what is essentially a fascist state of Israel.

The problem is that while everyone knows what we have created is a tragedy, the lucre of the relationship prevents politicians from resetting. We’re stuck in a richly well-deserved doom loop, papered over by military forces.

The Epstein files reveal the not so surprising manipulation of the rich and powerful in America (business, politics) by leveraging kompromat and placing obvious Mossad asset Epstein in a space where he's negotiating between Israel, Syria, and Russia.

 

[Duke Mu]

There's a lot caused by the religious heretics in the US who love the idea of Israel as a signal of the Second Coming while caring nothing about the Jews themselves or their neighbors. They need Israel to exist for the sake of their own delusions.

...and Trump is Gag and MAGAg.

 

[Kingpin]

The long game remains Iran. Because of that, the toxicity of the US/Israeli relationship, as Sunny has pointed out, remains maddeningly enduring. The Iranian peoples, despite their regime's public zealotry, are deeply pragmatic. I fear they will suffer much more before a reset occurs. Once done, I see a fundamental reset of our relationship with Tel Aviv.

The irony of it all is that I think we have much more in common culturally and intellectually with the Iranians/Persians than with the Saudi/Arabs. Iranians in science (my field) certainly fall into that category. If the Iranians can ever get rid of their theocracy, I think our countries could be friends.

 

[Paine]

Settlement expansion, the structural privileging of Jewish citizens over Arab citizens, and the slow strangulation of Palestinian political and economic life didn’t begin with Netanyahu and won’t end with him. Rabin and Barak, for example, both also presided over settlement growth.

The core issue is the structure itself.The Nation-State Law codifies a hierarchy that predates Netanyahu. We’ve spent 30 years betting on the two-state solution and in that time the West Bank has been carved up to the point where a viable Palestinian state is essentially a geographic fiction.

I’d argue the only just and workable endpoint is a single democratic state with full equal rights for everyone: Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim, whatever. We did something like this after the Civil War during Reconstruction. It was flawed and ultimately sabotaged by organized violence, but I think that the failure of the attempt doesn’t discredit the principle.

IMO, the most realistic path there runs through Washington. Israel’s current position is only sustainable with unconditional American backing. That backing is not as solid as it once was, particularly among younger Americans and younger American Jews.

 

[Batt Boy]

The irony of it all is that I think we have much more in common culturally and intellectually with the Iranians/Persians than with the Saudi/Arabs. Iranians in science (my field) certainly fall into that category. If the Iranians can ever get rid of their theocracy, I think our countries could be friends.

Our countries were once friends. We have no better natural ally in the region. Unfortunately, the CIA screwed it up and then the Mullah's screwed an ancient and wondrous culture and people.

 

[finesse]

Our countries were once friends. We have no better natural ally in the region. Unfortunately, the CIA screwed it up and then the Mullah's screwed an ancient and wondrous culture and people.

That was when we were still sucking up to Britain. My understanding is that Churchill (and the British oil companies who were afraid of nationalization) was really pushing for us to interfere. Not that it took much to get the Dulles brothers all hot and bothered.

 

[Paine]

Excellent point. If there is/was going to be regime change assistance from the inside was the way forward. Iranians/Persians are well educated and are capable want a democracy, whereas Iraq and the Arab kingdoms, not so much. The Iranian people do seem like a pawn in all this.

Keep in mind that the Saudis have an interest in limiting Iranian Mullah power. Religion (Sunni vs. Shia) and deep historical Arab vs. Persian friction goes back millenia.

The idea that some Middle Eastern peoples are culturally capable of democracy while others aren’t is just classic Orientalism. Iraq had a secular nationalist government before the US helped overthrow it in 1963. Saudi authoritarianism exists as it does because we prop it up. Stop mistaking political outcomes for cultural characteristics. This is essentially just soft race science.

 

[Batt Boy]

That was when we were still sucking up to Britain. My understanding is that Churchill (and the British oil companies who were afraid of nationalization) was really pushing for us to interfere. Not that it took much to get the Dulles brothers all hot and bothered.

Boot & Ajax were early 50s, but the stage was no doubt set in 1943.