Memes will be the heat death of civilization

superrific

Master of the ZZLverse
Messages
11,113
A longish post. The title captures the meaning but is exaggerated for effect.

1. I hate memes. I've registered my complaints about them before; this post isn't about that. They are usually inscrutable to me, but that's not a reason not to use them except when conversing with me directly. Otherwise it's a me problem.

But I also think that the reason I struggle is that memes are superpositions of meaning and this is important. What collapses them into a shared meaning is a set of social and psychological prior understandings that form the interpretive context. If you don't share the understandings -- or for some reason can't access them -- then the meme looks like a convex mirror. It's not that I can't figure out any meanings. It's that there are many possible ones and I don't know how to sort the ones that are intended from those that are not.

2. In some respects, memes are intentionally obscure this way. Let's analogize them to paintings. The first generation of memes -- static images with captions -- are like representational art in the 19th century. Before the romantics and impressionists, painting was focused on an attempt to reproduce reality. Like ordinary language or even technical language. In art, the impressionists took liberties with the natural world to create vibes, and those liberties usually took the form of imprecision. Different people could see different things, or at least get different feelings. Nonetheless, you knew that you were looking at lilies or a starry night. The newest generation of memes -- the video clips without any context -- are much more like abstract art. Maybe not quite Jackson Pollock, but at least cubism. If you're not told beforehand that you're looking at a mariachi band or the aftermath of a brutal bombing, you're probably not going to be able to extract that from the art itself.

3. Memes are thus intentionally obfuscating. They replace explicit signifiers with assumed, pre-conceptualized norms. That is why, I think, people find them fun. They are like intertextual literature. They are like Tarantino dialogue. A classic scene from Pulp Fiction is where Jules and Vincent are washing their hands and Jules does a better job. There's crisp dialogue which I won't reproduce in toto, but think about the line where Vincent says, "maybe if I had Lava or something." That line works because of the Lava reference. But you also have to know what Lava is. My son had no idea what that meant without me explaining it to him.

4. But fun isn't the same as communicative. The Lava line fails to communicate its meaning without underlying knowledge. So too with memes. And in siloed semantic environments, that loss of communicative effect can be critical. Does anyone here know what Pepe The Frog means? I don't. I just know that white supremacists and alt-right types use it, so if I see it, I know to be suspicious. That's terrible discourse. It's possible that the person is making a legit point, but because s/he chose a meme to express it, liberals can't understand it. We can't sort a good Pepe point from a bad one. We just go with a "rebuttable" presumption that they are all bad, and that rebuttable is largely theoretical.

5. Thomas Pynchon had an idea about the heat death of communication. It was that language is essentially thermodynamic, and each use of language increases the entropy of the system. I find that loose metaphor instructive. There is a sense in which that's true, right? If I tell you that I feel sad, I'm inherently asserting a meaning for the word sad. I'm saying, this mental state and sadness are the same. But you don't know my mental state, and anyway, maybe you think of sadness slightly differently. But now, your understanding has changed a little bit. Apparently the meaning of sadness is broad enough to describe my mental state.

We can see this with linguistic shifts. At some point in the last decade, it became accepted that "reticent" and "reluctant" are synonyms. They are not. To the extent that reticence is reluctance, it is a specific form -- i.e. reluctance to speak. But it's not always about reluctance; reticence is more a description of the world (or precisely the behavior of a person) than an assertion about causality. Alas, we've lost that meaning. If I say that I'm reticent to mow my lawn, who the fuck knows what I am saying. It is just reluctance? If so, why didn't I say that? Maybe I mean something different. Or if people use it that way too commonly, then the original meaning of the word just gets lost. We no longer have a word to describe silence that manifests in a certain way without characterizing it, without assigning causality. That is a loss of meaning.

Do this enough times, and communication becomes difficult. If I want to say that something is paradoxical, meaning that it has no truth value -- well, it's hard to say that, because paradox has come to be a synonym for "ironically." It's been Morrisetted.

6. It seems to me that memes accelerate this process rapidly. If you tell me that my idea is implausible, that I can understand and fix. If what you mean is that it's probably a lie, then I can understand that too. But when you tell me that my idea is Jan Brady, what the fuck does that accomplish? That could mean hundreds of different things. You've no longer provided a critique. You've no longer made any attempt to communicate. All you have done is exclude. You've divided the world into "ideas I like" and "ideas I mock" without any explanation.

Put differently, suppose we tried to create an entire language based on memes. How would that function? I think it would be an utter catastrophe. And while we aren't at that point, not nearly at that point, I think we are trending in that direction.
 
They're more widespread but no different than any ingroup slang, professional jargon or thieves' cant. They are identifiers that serve to separate you from the common herd. If any are significant, they'll become a part of the new communications just as English does with foreign words and new words. Ask the French how well static languages work.
 
So, too, with all forms of cultural allusions and symbolism.

Perhaps the issue is not the concept of memes itself, but the fear of becoming obsolete in a modernized world that is rapidly passing us by, like Hiroshige's cat, looking out the window, and realizing the world he knows - the era of his youth - is no more?

1766088513141.png
 

Hell, Japanese has Kanji, which is very much in a similar vein.

Regardless, we are moving towards a post literate society. For most of human history, written language hasn't been something accessible to most people. The 20th century was the outlier in terms of literacy rates, not the norm. Humanity will adjust.
 
Fun fact: today was Meme Day for our school's spirit week. By and large, it is the one day that students haven't really participated. Take that for what you will, but memes are not necessarily embraced by this generation of youth as much as they were for millenials/gen z.
 
Memes are not intentionally obscure. If they were obscure then they would not actually function as memes.

Memes represent discrete units of cultural ideas, symbols onto which meaning is attached. They propagate organically, evolving over time, transferring relevant cultural information in much the same way that genetic information is passed along.

Internet memes are just one form of meme. That weird S that everyone drew in middle school is a meme. The notion that Marilyn Manson had his ribs removed is a meme. Song lyrics, poetry, art- all could be considered memetics if they reach a threshold of ubiquity. The fact that you know Beethoven's symphony from the first four notes is evidence of the power of memes to convey information.

I don't think your problem is really with memes. You may just not like the speed with which our culture is changing. But to blame that on memes is to conflate cause and effect.
 
They're more widespread but no different than any ingroup slang, professional jargon or thieves' cant. They are identifiers that serve to separate you from the common herd. If any are significant, they'll become a part of the new communications just as English does with foreign words and new words. Ask the French how well static languages work.
Interesting counterpoint. I could accept memes as slang on steroids, but I don't think they are the same.

Slang is like electron orbitals. There are different places an electron can reside, but they are limited and well ordered. So too with slang. A bad man might be a criminal or a guy you don't want to mess with with; but he's not someone gifted at singing.

Memes are more like continuous probability distributions. They superimpose a much greater set of meanings and are thus more inscrutable. Remember in the 80s when adults would lament how "bad means good now."? It was foreign, but it was also comprehensible. Once exposed to the alternate definition, you could understand. By contrast, the Jan Brady meme requires substantially more prior knowledge to understand. There is more going on there than a single word.

So if they are similar, they vary by degree. Slang has always been with us and it has never made communication impossible. Memes -- the jury is still out. At the very least, they coincide in time with a stunning loss of communicative universality.
 
Interesting counterpoint. I could accept memes as slang on steroids, but I don't think they are the same.

Slang is like electron orbitals. There are different places an electron can reside, but they are limited and well ordered. So too with slang. A bad man might be a criminal or a guy you don't want to mess with with; but he's not someone gifted at singing.

Memes are more like continuous probability distributions. They superimpose a much greater set of meanings and are thus more inscrutable. Remember in the 80s when adults would lament how "bad means good now."? It was foreign, but it was also comprehensible. Once exposed to the alternate definition, you could understand. By contrast, the Jan Brady meme requires substantially more prior knowledge to understand. There is more going on there than a single word.

So if they are similar, they vary by degree. Slang has always been with us and it has never made communication impossible. Memes -- the jury is still out. At the very least, they coincide in time with a stunning loss of communicative universality.
I dunno. Cockney rhyming slang is a tough row to hoe.
 
You may just not like the speed with which our culture is changing.
Boy is this a predictable and errant response. My personal gripe is that I don't understand them. My larger point, though, is undeniable: we are becoming so polarized that it is often difficult for different groups to communicate. And while memes aren't solely responsible by any stretch, they are contributors.

Again, take Pepe the Frog. What does he mean? When you see a cartoon featuring Pepe, what does it mean? Pepe's presence is to obfuscate. It's to allow the cartoon to mean different things to different people, which is why they build coalitions of amorphous fluid groups. Someone who is virulently racist might take a different meaning from the cartoon as someone who is merely anti-woke (these are distinct concepts, even if they often overlap empirically). That's by design.

That is a valid complaint that isn't just me getting old.
 
I dunno. Cockney rhyming slang is a tough row to hoe.
Why? There are dictionaries of cockney slang. When someone says, "he orders an aristotle of the most ping-pong tiddly in the nuclear sub," that can be directly translated. Aristotle = bottle. Nuclear Sub = pub. Ping-Pong = strong.
 
A longish post. The title captures the meaning but is exaggerated for effect.

1. I hate memes. I've registered my complaints about them before; this post isn't about that. They are usually inscrutable to me, but that's not a reason not to use them except when conversing with me directly. Otherwise it's a me problem.

But I also think that the reason I struggle is that memes are superpositions of meaning and this is important. What collapses them into a shared meaning is a set of social and psychological prior understandings that form the interpretive context. If you don't share the understandings -- or for some reason can't access them -- then the meme looks like a convex mirror. It's not that I can't figure out any meanings. It's that there are many possible ones and I don't know how to sort the ones that are intended from those that are not.

2. In some respects, memes are intentionally obscure this way. Let's analogize them to paintings. The first generation of memes -- static images with captions -- are like representational art in the 19th century. Before the romantics and impressionists, painting was focused on an attempt to reproduce reality. Like ordinary language or even technical language. In art, the impressionists took liberties with the natural world to create vibes, and those liberties usually took the form of imprecision. Different people could see different things, or at least get different feelings. Nonetheless, you knew that you were looking at lilies or a starry night. The newest generation of memes -- the video clips without any context -- are much more like abstract art. Maybe not quite Jackson Pollock, but at least cubism. If you're not told beforehand that you're looking at a mariachi band or the aftermath of a brutal bombing, you're probably not going to be able to extract that from the art itself.

3. Memes are thus intentionally obfuscating. They replace explicit signifiers with assumed, pre-conceptualized norms. That is why, I think, people find them fun. They are like intertextual literature. They are like Tarantino dialogue. A classic scene from Pulp Fiction is where Jules and Vincent are washing their hands and Jules does a better job. There's crisp dialogue which I won't reproduce in toto, but think about the line where Vincent says, "maybe if I had Lava or something." That line works because of the Lava reference. But you also have to know what Lava is. My son had no idea what that meant without me explaining it to him.

4. But fun isn't the same as communicative. The Lava line fails to communicate its meaning without underlying knowledge. So too with memes. And in siloed semantic environments, that loss of communicative effect can be critical. Does anyone here know what Pepe The Frog means? I don't. I just know that white supremacists and alt-right types use it, so if I see it, I know to be suspicious. That's terrible discourse. It's possible that the person is making a legit point, but because s/he chose a meme to express it, liberals can't understand it. We can't sort a good Pepe point from a bad one. We just go with a "rebuttable" presumption that they are all bad, and that rebuttable is largely theoretical.

5. Thomas Pynchon had an idea about the heat death of communication. It was that language is essentially thermodynamic, and each use of language increases the entropy of the system. I find that loose metaphor instructive. There is a sense in which that's true, right? If I tell you that I feel sad, I'm inherently asserting a meaning for the word sad. I'm saying, this mental state and sadness are the same. But you don't know my mental state, and anyway, maybe you think of sadness slightly differently. But now, your understanding has changed a little bit. Apparently the meaning of sadness is broad enough to describe my mental state.

We can see this with linguistic shifts. At some point in the last decade, it became accepted that "reticent" and "reluctant" are synonyms. They are not. To the extent that reticence is reluctance, it is a specific form -- i.e. reluctance to speak. But it's not always about reluctance; reticence is more a description of the world (or precisely the behavior of a person) than an assertion about causality. Alas, we've lost that meaning. If I say that I'm reticent to mow my lawn, who the fuck knows what I am saying. It is just reluctance? If so, why didn't I say that? Maybe I mean something different. Or if people use it that way too commonly, then the original meaning of the word just gets lost. We no longer have a word to describe silence that manifests in a certain way without characterizing it, without assigning causality. That is a loss of meaning.

Do this enough times, and communication becomes difficult. If I want to say that something is paradoxical, meaning that it has no truth value -- well, it's hard to say that, because paradox has come to be a synonym for "ironically." It's been Morrisetted.

6. It seems to me that memes accelerate this process rapidly. If you tell me that my idea is implausible, that I can understand and fix. If what you mean is that it's probably a lie, then I can understand that too. But when you tell me that my idea is Jan Brady, what the fuck does that accomplish? That could mean hundreds of different things. You've no longer provided a critique. You've no longer made any attempt to communicate. All you have done is exclude. You've divided the world into "ideas I like" and "ideas I mock" without any explanation.

Put differently, suppose we tried to create an entire language based on memes. How would that function? I think it would be an utter catastrophe. And while we aren't at that point, not nearly at that point, I think we are trending in that direction.
Disco Lol GIF
 
Some of it were things you didn't notice growing. I'm always amazed to find out how many middle aged and younger people didn't realized that the Kountry Kitchens and Kountry Klubs and such were all Klan friend and/or owned.
 
So, too, with all forms of cultural allusions and symbolism.

Perhaps the issue is not the concept of memes itself, but the fear of becoming obsolete in a modernized world that is rapidly passing us by, like Hiroshige's cat, looking out the window, and realizing the world he knows - the era of his youth - is no more?

1766088513141.png
That might be your fear. It isn't my fear. Mine is fascism. Mine is the erosion of democracy. Habermas created a compelling theory of democracy out of the fact and qualities of discourse. If the discourse is gone, so is democracy.
 
That might be your fear. It isn't my fear. Mine is fascism. Mine is the erosion of democracy. Habermas created a compelling theory of democracy out of the fact and qualities of discourse. If the discourse is gone, so is democracy.
You know full well that fascism is a great fear of mine. Memes are no longer the primary form of propaganda by fascists because there are much more effective tools now. You are about a decade late on that one.

 
Memes are not intentionally obscure. If they were obscure then they would not actually function as memes.

Memes represent discrete units of cultural ideas, symbols onto which meaning is attached. They propagate organically, evolving over time, transferring relevant cultural information in much the same way that genetic information is passed along.
They are intentionally obscure. They hide meaning, and require the viewer to supply it.

They are not discrete units at all. They are like packets of super-imposed meanings that can only be observed with calibrated measuring equipment. The disaster girl meme? What does it communicate? The girl is looking at a fire. Is she pleased? Did she start the fire? Is she just posing for the camera? Why is she looking away instead of watching the firefighters? Is she resigned to loss? I think the point is that all of those meanings are included. In physics terms, there are multiple eigenstates that are smeared together. Clarity is not the goal.
 
You know full well that fascism is a great fear of mine. Memes are no longer the primary form of propaganda by fascists because there are much more effective tools now. You are about a decade late on that one.

I'm not talking about propaganda. I'm talking about structural collapse of the foundations of a free society. If we can't communicate, then we can't collectively deliberate. Then society becomes internecine war. If we use memes as a foundation for generalized mockery, then we get rounds of cancellation, not understanding or constructive engagement.
 
Back
Top