Should lies be protected as free speech?

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1. The mechanisms we have to address lies are obviously not working. As I mentioned, defamation is a joke.
2. "Who gets to say what is a lie" is a valid concern, but there are a few rejoinders. First, that problem already exists everywhere. In a fraud prosecution, the government has to prove that the defendant made false statements. That has not proven to be an intractable problem.

Second, we can address that concern with a buffer (using the term metaphorically). We could say that the falseness has to be established by clear and convincing evidence. And of course, intent matters. If the government can show intent to spread falsehoods (which would be required under any sensible system), it shouldn't be that hard to infer that the defendant's words were in fact false.

Third, isn't it an indictment of our current approach and the state of our society that "who gets to say what is a lie" is such a common response? This concern is almost pathological in itself. It shouldn't be hard to establish a lie, no matter who is saying it. Again, it depends on the nature of the lie. But most falsehoods that are close to the line of truth aren't necessary spread with conscious knowledge of its falseness, so they wouldn't be impacted.

To use an example: should it be illegal in some fashion for a registered nurse to claim on TV (let alone a congressional hearing) that the COVID vaccines makes a person magnetized? Are we really going to bat for that, even with awareness of the slippery slope problem? Should there really be no consequence at all? Shouldn't she at least lose her professional qualifications?

3. It's true that any system of punishing lies would likely require other changes to our political and judicial systems. For one thing, we need different judges. But again, there's a chicken-and-egg problem. We might get a better system and better judges if it was much harder to lie your way into power.
1. The mechanisms are working about as well as they always have. I don't think is the first crop of politicians who lie.

2. The prosecution doesn't get to say what is a lie. The jury gets to say what is a lie or in some cases a judge if The appropriate party in the litigation agrees. You could set up some sort of jury system to judge if a media platform has lies but every media platform has lies. So you could set up a jury system to determine if those lies are harmful but we already have that.

And to me "who gets to say what a lie?" isn't an indictment of our current system. It's an indictment of the person that doesn't really think through what this type of system will lead to.
 
The exact name, according to the link you provided, was "disinformation governance board" Not responding to this bullshit any more. I'll just say that you're providing terrific evidence as to why our system requires changing. You just took a person's pejorative characterization of something, accepted it as truth, and republished it as a straight-up lie. Why should we allow that if it were to lead to terrible consequences?
While I should have been more careful about the name, the name is absolutely irrelevant to the Orwellian nature of such a government department. You will dig your heels in on the name aspect to avoid acknowledging how ridiculous and dangerous is the premise.

If the department came into existence, and was on the verge of being taken over by the Trump admin, I suspect Biden & Co. would be absolutely scrambling to shut it down.
 
1. The mechanisms are working about as well as they always have. I don't think is the first crop of politicians who lie.

2. The prosecution doesn't get to say what is a lie. The jury gets to say what is a lie or in some cases a judge if The appropriate party in the litigation agrees. You could set up some sort of jury system to judge if a media platform has lies but every media platform has lies. So you could set up a jury system to determine if those lies are harmful but we already have that.

And to me "who gets to say what a lie?" isn't an indictment of our current system. It's an indictment of the person that doesn't really think through what this type of system will lead to.
Your point #2 is baffling. I also was not talking about a media platform. You brought that into the mix. I wasn't talking about anything specifically.

As for your last sentence, yeah, you really nailed it. I am, of course, famous for never thinking things through, whereas you are a studied genius that follows all ideas to their logical conclusion before opening your mouth. Projection is so strong with you people. Maybe the problem is that you thought from A to B, whereas I think from A to B and then to C, D, E etc. whereas you don't even know any of that even exists. That is why discussion is supposed to be beneficial, but it only works if people are willing to open their minds and stop believing themselves to have all the answers without any intellectual curiosity whatsoever (at least not on policy topics).
 
I already replied to that question. You merely restated it again. I'm not going to engage again, because I do try to be a beacon of truth and not a firehose of untruth. I'm also not letting this thread be derailed by your bullshit. If you want to bitch about fictitious ministries of truth, start a thread.
By not avoiding giving a real answer and, in doing so, not acknowledging the realities of Muslim extremism, you are only showing how subjective "truth" can be.

Have you seen the clip from Newsroom where Jeff Daniel's character is responding to a student's question and it turns into a rant where he says:

"If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so goddamn always?"

That, IMO, is people like you and people like you are why Trump is winning.
 
As you pointed out, we already have mechanisms to address certain lies. I don't think we need to create new mechanisms to shut down platforms that spread the lies.

Who gets to say what is a lie? Do we choose that by voting or appointment by someone who was selected by voting? I can't see a different way to do it and most people aren't going to be happy about half the time. How many lies get a platform shut down? 10% of posts? 30%? One if someone with enough power disagrees with it?

I just don't like politicians choosing which speech should be punished. Its unworkable to do it right and prone to political shenanigans if its done wrong.
I don’t know. We are living with the result of Donald Trump’s firehose of lies for the last ten years. They undermine our institutions, debase our political and civic culture, and rationalize abhorrent and dishonest behavior. Lie after lie, large and small, from a false narrative about a stolen election to the size of the crowd at his inauguration. His silly lies this week about no President having ever been sworn in under a half-mast flag to the New Orleans terrorist who he claimed drove across the Mexican border a few days ago continuously erode confidence in our societal institutions. It is purposeful and effective. I don’t think it is prudent to just say it is protected and there is nothing we can do about it.
 
By not avoiding giving a real answer and, in doing so, not acknowledging the realities of Muslim extremism, you are only showing how subjective "truth" can be.
You have no understanding of truth. That much is obvious. Putting you back on ignore because I am so tired of the constant bullshit. It suffices to say that "I am aware of no data establishing that proposition" is not demonstrating the subjectivity of truth. It's demonstrating that you don't care about truth.
 
Your point #2 is baffling. I also was not talking about a media platform. You brought that into the mix. I wasn't talking about anything specifically.

As for your last sentence, yeah, you really nailed it. I am, of course, famous for never thinking things through, whereas you are a studied genius that follows all ideas to their logical conclusion before opening your mouth. Projection is so strong with you people. Maybe the problem is that you thought from A to B, whereas I think from A to B and then to C, D, E etc. whereas you don't even know any of that even exists. That is why discussion is supposed to be beneficial, but it only works if people are willing to open their minds and stop believing themselves to have all the answers without any intellectual curiosity whatsoever (at least not on policy topics).

I don’t know. We are living with the result of Donald Trump’s firehose of lies for the last ten years. They undermine our institutions, debase our political and civic culture, and rationalize abhorrent and dishonest behavior. Lie after lie, large and small, from a false narrative about a stolen election to the size of the crowd at his inauguration. His silly lies this week about no President having ever been sworn in under a half-mast flag to the New Orleans terrorist who he claimed drove across the Mexican border a few days ago continuously erode confidence in our societal institutions. It is purposeful and effective. I don’t think it is prudent to just say it is protected and there is nothing we can do about it.
I do think Trump tells more lies than any mainstream politician, but I think he got elected in spite of the lies, not because of the lies. I do think there are plenty of trump fans that believe all of his nonsense but I really do think he wouldn't have gotten elected if there weren't a lot of Republicans that said I know he's full of it but he's a better option than what the Democrats are putting forward. In other words, the lies aren't the problem.
 
I think this is an ironic example of what would happen if we let the government decide whose speech should be censored. And make no mistake: there are folks like this on the Republican side, they are just as convinced they are right all the time, and they're going to be doing the decision making about half the time.

You have no understanding of truth. That much is obvious. Putting you back on ignore because I am so tired of the constant bullshit. It suffices to say that "I am aware of no data establishing that proposition" is not demonstrating the subjectivity of truth. It's demonstrating that you don't care about truth.
 
I do think Trump tells more lies than any mainstream politician, but I think he got elected in spite of the lies, not because of the lies. I do think there are plenty of trump fans that believe all of his nonsense but I really do think he wouldn't have gotten elected if there weren't a lot of Republicans that said I know he's full of it but he's a better option than what the Democrats are putting forward. In other words, the lies aren't the problem.
He lied about Haitians and then militias descended on Springfield and IIRC they had to close schools and maybe even put in a curfew.

So whether or not his lies helped him get elected, there are all sorts of other bad things to be worried about. Oh, and also his lies led to an insurrection, so there's that also.

And nothing about this topic has to be limited to politicians. Why allow Musk to get on twitter and spread disinformation? Or anyone else for that matter?
 
As you pointed out, we already have mechanisms to address certain lies. I don't think we need to create new mechanisms to shut down platforms that spread the lies.

Who gets to say what is a lie? Do we choose that by voting or appointment by someone who was selected by voting? I can't see a different way to do it and most people aren't going to be happy about half the time. How many lies get a platform shut down? 10% of posts? 30%? One if someone with enough power disagrees with it?

I just don't like politicians choosing which speech should be punished. Its unworkable to do it right and prone to political shenanigans if its done wrong.
I stand by my answer to the question posed in the thread title. One can’t simply lie about anything and everything and think it’s all going to be protected by “freedom of speech”. That’s all I was speaking to.

That said, I agree with European countries on things like making holocaust denials publicly, punishable by law. But I’m not sure we should be cutting out anybody’s tongue. However I think certain Haitians who can show harm by the “eating pets” lie have standing. Perpetuating lies like that shouldn’t be “protected speech”.
 
I think this is an ironic example of what would happen if we let the government decide whose speech should be censored. And make no mistake: there are folks like this on the Republican side, they are just as convinced they are right all the time, and they're going to be doing the decision making about half the time.
if what would happen is that idiots like zenmode would have a smaller platform, that's feature not bug. Anyway, nobody is talking about simply letting "the government" decide. That's another one of your reductive straw men. Saying the the government should be permitted to curtail speech does not imply that the government should be the sole or even primary arbiter of what speech to curtail.

If lying was not permitted, those folks on the Republican side would not be doing the decision making half the time. They would never win an election until they cleaned up their act, and if that means purging the congenital liars, then the folks who remain will be more truthful.

The only person here who thinks they are right all the time is you. And zen.
 
Government curtailment of speech is not the same thing as "the government decides." The government also curtails murder by prosecuting killers. That does not imply that the government just decides if a murder has been committed.

It is a frequent habit of yours to try to catch me in a contradiction. You have rarely, if ever, succeeded. What do you on the regular, though, is demonstrate your own paucity of understanding. It was entirely predictable that you would conflate "curtailment" with "the government decides," even though those are distinct concepts. If you think you see a contradiction from me, you should probably think on it again. 95% of the time, the problem is your Dunning Kruger.
 
Government curtailment of speech is not the same thing as "the government decides." The government also curtails murder by prosecuting killers. That does not imply that the government just decides if a murder has been committed.

It is a frequent habit of yours to try to catch me in a contradiction. You have rarely, if ever, succeeded. What do you on the regular, though, is demonstrate your own paucity of understanding. It was entirely predictable that you would conflate "curtailment" with "the government decides," even though those are distinct concepts. If you think you see a contradiction from me, you should probably think on it again. 95% of the time, the problem is your Dunning Kruger.
Glad it makes sense in your head.
 
FYI on this topic


The Biden administration has spent $267 million in taxpayer funds on research grants dedicated to combating so-called “misinformation” and investigating how it is spread, according to a new report from government spending watchdog Open the Books.
I'm kind of okay with this. I don't think misinformation is good for our democracy. I just don't think government censorship is the the right way to address it.
 
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I do think Trump tells more lies than any mainstream politician, but I think he got elected in spite of the lies, not because of the lies. I do think there are plenty of trump fans that believe all of his nonsense but I really do think he wouldn't have gotten elected if there weren't a lot of Republicans that said I know he's full of it but he's a better option than what the Democrats are putting forward. In other words, the lies aren't the problem.
Trump has absolutely been elected twice BECAUSE of lies, not in spite of them. Trump, for all his failings, recognizes that a huge portion of the American electorate is going to vote for the nominee of their preferred party no matter who that nominee is. Hell, I'm guilty. I'd have voted for Biden this time around even though I screamed for months that he had no business running and is clearly fading fast. The people who are that firmly entrenched are banked votes. Period. That is true for both parties.

What Trump did that changed the dynamic is to motivate a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't vote at all to vote for him because he says what they want to hear. The lies. They voted FOR the lies. They love the lies. They embrace the lies. They want the lies and they depend on the lies.

That's the Trump margin of victory.
 
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