Tariffs...

BubbaOtis

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I recall the tariffs on Chinese products that Trump enacted as being pilloried on the old board. Biden hasn't rescinded them and has added more. I just listened to a segment on NPR that mentioned Biden's tariff on Canadian lumber products as a factor in supply chain/ expense issues in the housing shortage. As an aside, the experts didn't seem too keen on the proposed $25k in assistance for first time buyers either.

Regarding tariffs, what say ye?
 
Tariffs are a tax that are borne by the consumer of the product. Say I like a French wine that costs $200 bucks and a tariff off $25 is placed on it. That's a tax that I pay, not the French. Donald's dummies think the French are paying the US $25.
 
Tariffs are a tax that are borne by the consumer of the product. Say I like a French wine that costs $200 bucks and a tariff off $25 is placed on it. That's a tax that I pay, not the French. Donald's dummies think the French are paying the US $25.
Well, technically the importer pays the tax, and if the importer is French, then it will be a French company paying it to the Treasury.

And then the price will rise and consumers will end up paying. I suspect that Trump only listened to the part about France paying it into the Treasury and just ran with that. Short attention span and all that.
 
My opinion is that most tariffs are a bad idea. I'm annoyed, in general, that Biden has not removed those put in place by Trump and has extended/increased them.

There are times/situations when tariffs are a good idea. It is possible that some of the current tariffs are in this realm. I will be honest that I haven't done enough specific research to know if any of the current tariffs would qualify.

What Trump is proposing in both breadth and depth of tariffs - at least as much as I can figure out from his rambling, nonsensical presentation style - is ludicrous and is obviously a bad idea.
 
Tariffs can be effective used in a targeted way. Only on products that are of national strategic interest that are being unfairly subsidized by other countries. So things like semiconductor chips are one that could make sense to tariff to protect our industry in that segment. The problem with Trump's proposal is it's more of a blanket tariff on all goods, which simply raises costs and doesn't do anything to help specific industries we need to protect.

On the aside I agree that the $25k in first time homebuyer assistance is misguided. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily against it as I think first time homebuyers could use some help, but the real problem is on the supply side. Simply giving more people the ability to participate in the market just increases the demand side, so ultimately that extra $25k is just going to cause prices to go up more. I'd like to see incentives to builders to create more supply as the primary tool to lower prices.
 
Tariffs can be effective used in a targeted way. Only on products that are of national strategic interest that are being unfairly subsidized by other countries. So things like semiconductor chips are one that could make sense to tariff to protect our industry in that segment. The problem with Trump's proposal is it's more of a blanket tariff on all goods, which simply raises costs and doesn't do anything to help specific industries we need to protect.

On the aside I agree that the $25k in first time homebuyer assistance is misguided. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily against it as I think first time homebuyers could use some help, but the real problem is on the supply side. Simply giving more people the ability to participate in the market just increases the demand side, so ultimately that extra $25k is just going to cause prices to go up more. I'd like to see incentives to builders to create more supply as the primary tool to lower prices.
Agree with all the above.

I believe Harris did, in fact, reference a plan to provide incentives/tax credits to builders of starter homes. She hasn’t yet given specifics, but that tells me she’s aware that the $25K for first-time buyers isn’t a panacea.
 
I recall the tariffs on Chinese products that Trump enacted as being pilloried on the old board. Biden hasn't rescinded them and has added more. I just listened to a segment on NPR that mentioned Biden's tariff on Canadian lumber products as a factor in supply chain/ expense issues in the housing shortage. As an aside, the experts didn't seem too keen on the proposed $25k in assistance for first time buyers either.

Regarding tariffs, what say ye?
There's a lot here to address.

1. Not all "tariffs" are the same. Let's start with the most basic type of tariff: the protectionist duty. These are the types of tariffs that countries impose to insulate industries from foreign competition. Lowering and/or removing these tariffs has been the goal of international trade law and policy for decades. Tariff schedules between nations are negotiated in massive "rounds" that take years to complete. The most recent round, the Doha talks, didn't accomplish as much as people hoped and to my knowledge, there have been no further multi-lateral negotiations.

This type of tariff is almost universally regarded as bad. The evidence that tariffs make countries poorer is overwhelming (and see below). In trade law, tariffs are one of the policies that we call "beggar-thy-neighbor," meaning that they are policies designed to make trading partners poorer. Well, one problem with that is that trading partners aren't too keen on being exploited, so they put their own beggar thy neighbor policies on us. It's lose-lose. If you want a vivid example, look at Latin America in the 60s and 70s. Those countries tried to use beggar-they-neighbor tariffs to substitute imports with domestic production. Most of them went broke not long thereafter.

This is, of course, the type of tariff Trump is talking about imposing.

Plus, conservative economists have long argued that even unilateral tariffs are harmful -- that is, the economic distortions that come from tariffs hurt the US economy even in the absence of any retaliatory tariffs. I've never been convinced by that. I can't say that it's wrong; I think the evidence is inconclusive because there's not that much data on this point. Anyway, if you believed conservative economists about tax policy . . .

2. There's another type of "tariff" that isn't, strictly speaking, a tariff at all but which works similarly enough that it falls within the casual meaning of that term. [Technically, "tariffs" are scheduled at the WTO; if it's not scheduled, it's not a tariff]. These are the so-called anti-dumping and countervailing duties. The purpose of these charges is to protect domestic companies not from competition, but from specific types of ***unfair*** competition -- namely, dumping and/or subsidies. So if a country tries to sell stuff below cost here, in the hopes of displacing the domestic producers, the government can impose a duty to make its effective price at least at cost. This type of duty is relatively uncontroversial. It's even written specifically into GATT.

Now, note that the existence of this category of duty is evidence that tariffs do in fact raise consumer prices. It would make no sense otherwise. It wouldn't protect domestic industry from dumping unless tariffs raise prices for goods.

Countervailing duties are a sibling of anti-dumping duties. Anti-dumping duties target sales below cost; countervailing duties target unfair subsidies that lower foreign producers' costs so that they technically aren't dumping. Countervailing duties are more controversial for several reasons, that we don't need to get into unless someone asks. It gets a bit technical.

So the tariffs that Biden is imposing on China are, to the best of my knowledge, anti-dumping and countervailing duties. That's not the same as an across-the-board tariff. It's also China specific (in addition to product specific) and thus different from Trump's ideas on that axis as well. Now, countervailing duties can be used as cover for protectionist tariffs (one reason they are controversial), and Biden might be doing some of that for political reasons. But they aren't the same thing.

3. Finally, there's a strategic tariff. The strategic tariff has the same function as the protectionist tariff, except that it applies only to infant industries of special importance to a home country. For instance, Europe used to put tariffs on airplanes and airplane parts to nurture Airbus, since otherwise continental Europe had no major airplane manufacturer and Europe wanted one. In the 1980s, lots of countries tried to nurture auto industries with strategic tariffs. They have mostly been rescinded, because strategic tariffs . . . well, they don't necessarily work, and even when they do, the results aren't necessarily great.

Sometimes these "infant industry" protections are marketed as countervailing or anti-dumping duties, but that's not necessarily an accurate characterization. I read articles about how the Obama solar panel tariffs were really infant-industry protection and that they weren't justified as anti-dumping or countervailing. But anyway, any duties imposed as part of the Inflation Reduction Act or the CHIPs Act (I don't remember if there were any) would be strategic in nature.

The jury is out on strategic tariffs. The economist who first wrote extensively about them was Paul Krugman, and it was this work that was mainly responsible for his Nobel. Some people think that they do tend to benefit infant industries, and thus ultimately lead to more competition and lower prices in the long run. I don't buy that completely. It certainly works in some cases (e.g. Airbus), but as I mentioned, there are a lot of examples of it failing. Ever heard of Maruti cars? Yeah. They were designated the "official car" of India and tariffs were put in to protect the industry. Too bad the cards sucked. The company was sold to Suzuki. Maybe they make good cars now, but they aren't Indian anymore so the strategic tariff failed.

Does this help?
 
As for Canadian softwood lumber: this is a long-standing trade dispute that got started back in 1982. It's been in front of NAFTA arbitration panels, the WTO dispute resolution panels and the Court of Appeals, US courts, Canadian courts -- I mean, there's been a lot of action on that front. In 2006 I think, the Canadians and the US entered a 10 year "Softwood Lumber Agreement" that put the dispute on the back burner, but the SLA expired and hasn't been renewed.

At issue is the contention by American lumber producers that Canada subsidizes its lumber production through a set of policies that don't specifically benefit the lumber industry, but which together give the lumber industry an unfair cost advantage. I have no way to evaluate this dispute. It is technical beyond belief, and it also involves Canadian law primarily, which I don't know. Anyway, for this reason, the US long imposed countervailing duties on Canadian lumber.

Then came Trump's "revised NAFTA" which, of course, looked mostly like the original. One change was that it addressed softwood lumber specifically, and allowed the US to place up to 20% duty on Canadian lumber, according to wikipedia. That was, I think, the tariff in place until 2020 or 2021. The agreement called for the U.S. to perform an annual review of the duty, and adjust it as necessary based on lumber prices.

Initially, the duty was decreased -- to the 8% that it was before May of this year. Then the tariff was raised to 14% after review. It is important to note that this wasn't really a discretionary decision by the president. It might have been discretionary around the edges, but this is a matter that has been committed to treaty and to the best of my knowledge, the formulae used in the review of countervailing duties were at least agreed to by the Canadians.

So the softwood tariffs are not really "Biden" tariffs in any way. If you want to assign blame to any specific president, it would be Trump -- but I don't think that's the right way to look at it. American lumber policy has been more or less unchanged since the 1980s. Every president has continued to impose countervailing duties on softwood from Canada. I don't see Trump's actions as a break from that tradition, so I think it's better to view it as a bipartisan economic policy of the United States that has been in place for a long time.

It's kind of important to understand the effect of this tariff, though. The 8% tariff adds $32 to the price of newly constructed home. The 14% tariff adds $56. That's according to reporting in the Vancouver Sun. So yeah, it increases prices on new homes by . . . $25. I think we will manage. This is one reason the tariff has lasted so long. It's important to an industry with considerable political power out of proportion to its economic importance, and most Americans don't even notice because it rarely affects our lives.
 
I recall the tariffs on Chinese products that Trump enacted as being pilloried on the old board. Biden hasn't rescinded them and has added more. I just listened to a segment on NPR that mentioned Biden's tariff on Canadian lumber products as a factor in supply chain/ expense issues in the housing shortage. As an aside, the experts didn't seem too keen on the proposed $25k in assistance for first time buyers either.

Regarding tariffs, what say ye?
Not a fan generally, but at least the democrats understand how they work.
 
I would say that who ultimately pays for the tariffs can vary significantly.

Let’s say there is a 10% tariff put on a widget. If people really want the French version of the widget they might pay 10% more for it. If people don’t care where the widget is from, the producer might eat that cost or choose to not export the widget to the US. In the latter case that means there is less supply and the cost of the widget would likely increase meaning the consumer would pay more.

I don’t have an economics background so anyone please correct anything I said that is wrong. I state the above for conversational purposes and not to pretend to be an expert on the matter.
 
Only on products that are of national strategic interest that are being unfairly subsidized by other countries.
Technically, in trade law, these two factors are separate. You can impose tariffs for strategically important goods, or you can impose them as countervailing duties. It doesn't have to be both.

Now, maybe you're saying that the tariffs are only good if both elements are present -- if they are protecting an infant industry or strategically important industry that is also subject to dumping or subsidy. That might be the case. I can't really say. I will say, though, that these two qualities don't often go together. Dumping and subsidies occur when a country is trying to displace an existing industry in another country. The goal is to force out the domestic producers, then raise the price again and profit. That strategy doesn't make sense if there isn't an industry in the first place. Those aren't the markets an exporter wants to loss lead -- those are the markets where exporters seek to clean up and cover the costs of its subsidies imposed elsewhere.

It didn't used to be the case that strategic tariffs focused too much on the "national security" aspect. In law school, we used to talk about infant industry protections. It's only been in the last decade, I think, that people have focused on "strategic" in terms of national security -- and especially so since the pandemic. I stopped following trade too much a while ago. So it's possible that my above analysis of the interplay between countervailing duties and strategic duties is outdated.
 
My opinion is that most tariffs are a bad idea. I'm annoyed, in general, that Biden has not removed those put in place by Trump and has extended/increased them.

There are times/situations when tariffs are a good idea. It is possible that some of the current tariffs are in this realm. I will be honest that I haven't done enough specific research to know if any of the current tariffs would qualify.

What Trump is proposing in both breadth and depth of tariffs - at least as much as I can figure out from his rambling, nonsensical presentation style - is ludicrous and is obviously a bad idea.
I believe tariffs have a proper need and use, but as trump has proposed it would not be the best use of them.
 
Ever heard of Maruti cars? Yeah. They were designated the "official car" of India and tariffs were put in to protect the industry. Too bad the cards sucked. The company was sold to Suzuki. Maybe they make good cars now, but they aren't Indian anymore so the strategic tariff failed.
You're entirely correct, but the Maruti Omni will always have a home in my heart. Such an awesome little van.
 
Technically, in trade law, these two factors are separate. You can impose tariffs for strategically important goods, or you can impose them as countervailing duties. It doesn't have to be both.

Now, maybe you're saying that the tariffs are only good if both elements are present -- if they are protecting an infant industry or strategically important industry that is also subject to dumping or subsidy. That might be the case. I can't really say. I will say, though, that these two qualities don't often go together. Dumping and subsidies occur when a country is trying to displace an existing industry in another country. The goal is to force out the domestic producers, then raise the price again and profit. That strategy doesn't make sense if there isn't an industry in the first place. Those aren't the markets an exporter wants to loss lead -- those are the markets where exporters seek to clean up and cover the costs of its subsidies imposed elsewhere.

It didn't used to be the case that strategic tariffs focused too much on the "national security" aspect. In law school, we used to talk about infant industry protections. It's only been in the last decade, I think, that people have focused on "strategic" in terms of national security -- and especially so since the pandemic. I stopped following trade too much a while ago. So it's possible that my above analysis of the interplay between countervailing duties and strategic duties is outdated.
In my opinion a tariff should only be used if it's protecting a strategically important industry. Whether it's an infant industry or not is largely irrelevant in my opinion. If it isn't important to national security and another country can produce it cheaper or better then let them have at it. I simply don't care if we produce T-shirts in America for example. Different arguments can be made about what is strategic, for example I'm open to a discussion on whether solar technology is strategically important and there are bound to be gray areas. This is all opinion and I'm no trade expert.
 
Not even Trump voters believe Trump about tariffs...
  • Only 41% of Trump voters rate "Tariffs on imported Chinese goods are paid by China, not Americans" as Definitely True or Probably True
And yet 55% believe that infanticide is legal in the US("In some states it is legal to kill a baby after birth"). That tells you how unbelievable trump is on tariffs.
 
I would say that who ultimately pays for the tariffs can vary significantly.

Let’s say there is a 10% tariff put on a widget. If people really want the French version of the widget they might pay 10% more for it. If people don’t care where the widget is from, the producer might eat that cost or choose to not export the widget to the US. In the latter case that means there is less supply and the cost of the widget would likely increase meaning the consumer would pay more.

I don’t have an economics background so anyone please correct anything I said that is wrong. I state the above for conversational purposes and not to pretend to be an expert on the matter.
It *can* vary significantly, but in practice, it almost never does. Here's why:

1. First, it will basically never happen with widgets -- widgets being a stand-in for a commodity product. Why on Earth would anyone want a French widget instead of an American widget? And since it's a commodity product, there's not a high profit margin here. The French company will not pay that cost. It would lose money. So it will either charge more for its product in the U.S., or it will stop selling into the U.S. Either result raises prices in the U.S.

2. What about strongly branded luxury products -- e.g. Louis Vuitton bags or German autos? This is the best case scenario for tariffs. These goods have such a high gross margin that they can afford to eat some additional costs and still profit. I mean, Louis Vuitton is never going to stop selling a bag in the U.S. that costs $50 to produce and sells for $5000 (or whatever the insane profit margin is). If the tariff raises the cost by $100, Louis Vuitton would eat that. But Louis Vuitton bags are a tiny, tiny, tiny part of the economy and few goods resemble them.

With autos, the same story is true but to a much lesser degree. Cars from Europe are tariffed at 2.5% (trucks are tariffed at 25%, which is one reason why American firms dominate in trucks). Would Porsche still sell cars in the U.S. if that 2.5% tariff went up to 10%? I would think so (though I'm assuming a high gross margin on a Porsche and that might not be true). But what about Fiats? Well, we know the answer -- they're not sold here. So again, the producers might eat some cost on the most high-end products, but these are tiny slices of the U.S. economy. For most of the US economy, its' not how it works.

3. One of the most pernicious aspects of tariffs, though, is that they basically give permission to U.S. companies to raise prices. This is often why they are harmful. For ball bearings, where there are thousands of US producers, the tariffs make no difference: there are plenty of suppliers. But for a lot of goods like, for example, washing machines, automobiles, or grocery stores, there's not much competition domestically. In fact, I think after Whirlpool and Maytag merged, there were only two American manufacturers of any significance. The only reason the DOJ approved that merger (and it shouldn't have) was that it was relying on imports to create competition. It was Bosch or LG that was going to keep dishwasher or washing machine prices down.

So what happens if you tariff washing machines or dishwashers? You can expect the prices charged by Whirlpool and Maytag to increase by close to that amount, just from reduced competition alone -- to say nothing of the supply/demand effects. Thus, we need Bosch to control prices. Remember when almost all cars sold in the U.S. were from the Big Three, because of tariffs? Yeah. Do you want to return to those days, of bad expensive cars. Grocery stores, too. Aldi has gotten a foothold in the U.S. because of all the grocery store mergers, and again the market counts on Aldi's presence to provide price competition (not that grocery stores are tradeable, but it's an example).

4. Long story short: for the vast, vast majority of consumer expenditures, tariffs will raise prices close to the amount of the tariff. They also reduce the quality of the goods produced domestically. This is why the strategic tariffs on autos that swept the globe in the 70s and 80s didn't work too well. Maruti made shit cars. It didn't have competition, so Indians had to buy shit cars. Eventually they got tired of shit cars so they changed the laws to allow for imports (or at least foreign investment).
 
Tariffs can be effective used in a targeted way. Only on products that are of national strategic interest that are being unfairly subsidized by other countries. So things like semiconductor chips are one that could make sense to tariff to protect our industry in that segment. The problem with Trump's proposal is it's more of a blanket tariff on all goods, which simply raises costs and doesn't do anything to help specific industries we need to protect.

On the aside I agree that the $25k in first time homebuyer assistance is misguided. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily against it as I think first time homebuyers could use some help, but the real problem is on the supply side. Simply giving more people the ability to participate in the market just increases the demand side, so ultimately that extra $25k is just going to cause prices to go up more. I'd like to see incentives to builders to create more supply as the primary tool to lower prices.
I agree the supply side of building needs to be addressed.

I don't believe this is as simply as helping with the down payment.

If there are taxes on building materials those should be removed.
 
Not even Trump voters believe Trump about tariffs...
  • Only 41% of Trump voters rate "Tariffs on imported Chinese goods are paid by China, not Americans" as Definitely True or Probably True
And yet 55% believe that infanticide is legal in the US("In some states it is legal to kill a baby after birth"). That tells you how unbelievable trump is on tariffs.
This shows how ignorant and willing to follow the cult leader the magas are.
 
In my opinion a tariff should only be used if it's protecting a strategically important industry. Whether it's an infant industry or not is largely irrelevant in my opinion. If it isn't important to national security and another country can produce it cheaper or better then let them have at it. I simply don't care if we produce T-shirts in America for example. Different arguments can be made about what is strategic, for example I'm open to a discussion on whether solar technology is strategically important and there are bound to be gray areas. This is all opinion and I'm no trade expert.
Got it. Yes, the infant industry category doesn't subsume all of the strategically important products.

I agree wholeheartedly that it doesn't matter if we produce T-shirts, but those are never considered the type of infant industries that countries want to protect. At least I've never seen them. Infant industries are cars, airplanes, semiconductors, etc. "Strategic" in the sense of economic strategy and industrial policy.

It also depends on what you mean by "strategic." I'm pretty sure that term originated with Krugman's work in the early 80s, and back then nobody was thinking about the importance of supply chain for computer chips because there wasn't one. And most goods that were vital to national security as understood then -- basically raw materials and oil -- were either tariffed already or would be impractical to tariff.

So back then, the term "strategic" referred to trade strategies by primarily developing world economies to modernize their economy. The idea was to allow countries like Bangladesh not to be consigned to a fate of exporting low-productivity, low-wage, low-margin goods while the rich countries get richer selling back computers and other tech. And if we think of strategic tariffs in that way, solar would definitely qualify. You're right -- we don't want to be making T-shirts. But we also don't want to be buying all our solar panels from China, which we pay for by exporting oil. That would be a bad trade (I think!).

I would put solar into the category of strategic industry. That's not the same thing as saying solar tariffs are good, though. I don't know enough to make that determination.
 
You're entirely correct, but the Maruti Omni will always have a home in my heart. Such an awesome little van.
I don't think I ever rode in one. When I was in India, Tata had expanded into passenger vehicles, and my wife's family (now ex-wife) had a Tata van. I asked them about Maruti and they said Maruti sucks. I don't know. Can't speak to the topic.
 
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