The radicalization of the military?

[wmheel1287]

I thought i would start a new thread rather than trying to place this into the separate topics. For quite a while now, I've been very concerned about the mentality and mindset of a great many of our enlisted folks. I grew up a military brat and my partner did as well. We are both involved in groups designed to support veterans. The last decade has been a bit scary in seeing the change in approach and thought process for many who enlist. There is a meanness there is many cases that seems to be systemic and hasn't been apparent to me previously.

They also seem to be VERY partisan as a group with very little respect for those who have political disagreements. That's new...at least as a general trend rather than an outlier.

Now we have 2 apparent terrorist attacks by enlisted members of our armed services. Is it time for concern?

 

[chrissteel]

Or the same old Islamic Jihad we always knew.

 

[wmheel1287]

Or the same old Islamic Jihad we always knew.

OK, you seem to be making a very large assumption that the New Orleans attack was motivated by Islamic belief. I don't think anyone is remotely close enough to know that or even to hazard a guess in that direction. Even if the guy is motivated by ISIS, that doesn't mean the motivation is Islamic. There are PLENTY of people who support or join organizations who don't believe in even the fundamentals of the organization.

Secondly, are you supposing that the guy from Colorado Springs was on an Islamic Jihad? If so, what leads you to think that?

 

[SnoopRob]

Were either suspect in these attacks active military?

I haven't seen that suggested. And I'd hesitate to make too much out of them both being veterans and we have a lot of veterans out there that don't commit terrorist attacks.

As far as being partisan and "mean", that's a whole lot of people in our country, as well.

I'm not saying that there isn't a problem among veterans, I don't have the experience or knowledge to say that. But a lot of what is in the OP sounds like a combination things that are endemic to our country on the whole or suggested using a sample size of 2.

 

[chrissteel]

OK, you seem to be making a very large assumption that the New Orleans attack was motivated by Islamic belief. I don't think anyone is remotely close enough to know that or even to hazard a guess in that direction. Even if the guy is motivated by ISIS, that doesn't mean the motivation is Islamic. There are PLENTY of people who support or join organizations who don't believe in even the fundamentals of the organization.

Secondly, are you supposing that the guy from Colorado Springs was on an Islamic Jihad? If so, what leads you to think that?

It is as good a guess as the military connection. Also attack in NO was very similar to ones in europe in recent years.

 

[Batt Boy]

OK, you seem to be making a very large assumption that the New Orleans attack was motivated by Islamic belief. I don't think anyone is remotely close enough to know that or even to hazard a guess in that direction. Even if the guy is motivated by ISIS, that doesn't mean the motivation is Islamic. There are PLENTY of people who support or join organizations who don't believe in even the fundamentals of the organization.

Secondly, are you supposing that the guy from Colorado Springs was on an Islamic Jihad? If so, what leads you to think that?

Pretty large assumption and broad brush on your own: "They also seem to be VERY partisan as a group with very little respect for those who have political disagreements"

The only real fix for your original question, is universal conscription. For those that oppose military service, they can serve is some domestic service corp for 24 months.

 

[Ramrouser]

But Austin, Milley et al have assured us that the danger in the military is “white supremacy” or “Christian Nationalism.”

 

[wmheel1287]

Were either suspect in these attacks active military?

I have seen reporting that Livelsberger is still Active Duty. I don't know that's 100% correct, but at minimum he's been an enlisted member within the last few months. He also has 19 years in.

You're not wrong about the troubles of veterans overall and that is precisely the kind of thing I volunteer with. My anecdotal evidence is that the recent vets are very different in a lot of ways than their predecessors.

 

[uncgriff]

I agree.

on a separate but maybe related note, when did we get to the point that we have to celebrate veterans every day of the year and at every sporting event?

My father in law was a world war 2 marine in the pacific, my father served in Vietnam and they never seemed to require the daily affirmation of their service that people seem to need now. My father in law never spoke of his service at all until the night we saw Saving Private Ryan and he told some snippets before dissolving into tears. On his deathbed, I got him to tell me more of the story than anyone had ever heard and it was pretty unbelievable. his division was slated to be the first on the beach for the invasion of mainland Japan so he had a pretty strong opinion about the bomb and its use. But outside of his family and friends, nobody would have known he was a veteran

My dad passed away last January from a very rare lung cancer that was almost certainly tied to agent orange from his time in Vietnam. Again, his focus was his career as a physician and not looking back to his time of service aside from wearing a hat on veteran's day.

I certainly honor everyone's service but I do get tired of it being a constant barrage as it is now. I think it takes away from Veteran's day and Memorial Day which is where the country should really put its focus.

again just my opinion.

 

[wmheel1287]

Pretty large assumption and broad brush on your own: "They also seem to be VERY partisan as a group with very little respect for those who have political disagreements"

The only real fix for your original question, is universal conscription. For those that oppose military service, they can serve is some domestic service corp for 24 months.

I thought I was being clear that those were my personal observations. I wasn't making an assumption. I was stating what I see.

And I agree on universal conscription or mandatory public service. We should have long ago done that. The entering age for a college freshman should be in the 20-21 range after 2-3 years of service. Then provide them with free education.

 

[mynameisbond]

But Austin, Milley et al have assured us that the danger in the military is “white supremacy” or “Christian Nationalism.”

We know very little about this guy so far. From what has been made public, It LOOKS LIKE a terrorist attack by someone who is ex-military and became radicalized. I'm cautious about making assumptions and conclusions based on limited information. I'm sure much more will be coming out as the investigation continues.

 

[wmheel1287]

But Austin, Milley et al have assured us that the danger in the military is “white supremacy” or “Christian Nationalism.”

Would you please stop polluting every single thread with your own political axe grinding? Seriously, it's so childish. I've never ignored anyone on a message board and I'd prefer not to ignore you. However, acting like a 2 year old taking a shit in the middle of the aisle at Wal Mart on every thread does wear thin.

 

[chrissteel]

FBI now says NO attack was lone wolf.

J

 

[finesse]

But Austin, Milley et al have assured us that the danger in the military is “white supremacy” or “Christian Nationalism.”

It is. Internal enemies are always worse because they destroy trust. Christian Nationalists are anti American by definition and can't be trusted to uphold the Constitution since much of what they believe about the Bible is a direct contradiction of it. That means they lied when they took an oath (which most did) to respect and defend it. How could you not believe they are more dangerous than an enemy we are looking for?

 

[SnoopRob]

I have seen reporting that Livelsberger is still Active Duty. I don't know that's 100% correct, but at minimum he's been an enlisted member within the last few months. He also has 19 years in.

You're not wrong about the troubles of veterans overall and that is precisely the kind of thing I volunteer with. My anecdotal evidence is that the recent vets are very different in a lot of ways than their predecessors.

Thanks for that info on Livelsberger. I thought I saw he was a vet, but I hadn't seen that he was only recently out of the military (or even still active).

When you say the "troubles of veterans overall", I'm curious if you can provide more details. What you've described thus far seems more in line with changes that I've seen in our general country - civilians, veterans, or active duty - in terms of partisanship and partisan rancor increasing a lot in the last 10+ years.

I do wonder if there is a difference in serving during the 20+ years of the War on Terror as opposed to serving before it in the post-Vietnam era. Without getting too far into the weeds, I wonder if serving during the WOT meant a far greater number of soldiers served in active hostilities than before (and for a longer period of time consistently than before) and what we're seeing is a sort of communal PTSD response from veterans from that time period? (Huge caveat: I've never been in the military and so I am well out of my depth here, but I am interested in the subject.)

 

[SnoopRob]

on a separate but maybe related note, when did we get to the point that we have to celebrate veterans every day of the year and at every sporting event?

My father in law was a world war 2 marine in the pacific, my father served in Vietnam and they never seemed to require the daily affirmation of their service that people seem to need now. My father in law never spoke of his service at all until the night we saw Saving Private Ryan and he told some snippets before dissolving into tears. On his deathbed, I got him to tell me more of the story than anyone had ever heard and it was pretty unbelievable. his division was slated to be the first on the beach for the invasion of mainland Japan so he had a pretty strong opinion about the bomb and its use. But outside of his family and friends, nobody would have known he was a veteran

My dad passed away last January from a very rare lung cancer that was almost certainly tied to agent orange from his time in Vietnam. Again, his focus was his career as a physician and not looking back to his time of service aside from wearing a hat on veteran's day.

I certainly honor everyone's service but I do get tired of it being a constant barrage as it is now. I think it takes away from Veteran's day and Memorial Day which is where the country should really put its focus.

again just my opinion.

I think this is an interesting question, but I think answering it would likely hijack the thread. (I know my response would certainly contribute to doing so.)

I'd encourage you to start a new thread asking this question that would appropriate for the discussion.

 

[UNCMSinLS]

I thought i would start a new thread rather than trying to place this into the separate topics. For quite a while now, I've been very concerned about the mentality and mindset of a great many of our enlisted folks. I grew up a military brat and my partner did as well. We are both involved in groups designed to support veterans. The last decade has been a bit scary in seeing the change in approach and thought process for many who enlist. There is a meanness there is many cases that seems to be systemic and hasn't been apparent to me previously.

They also seem to be VERY partisan as a group with very little respect for those who have political disagreements. That's new...at least as a general trend rather than an outlier.

Now we have 2 apparent terrorist attacks by enlisted members of our armed services. Is it time for concern?

This is one of the reasons I advocate for a required 2-4 year stint in military/civilian service for EVERY American. This gig should be service first & job second. The military should not only LOOK like America, but it should also BE America. This country would be much better served if every citizen had real skin in the game next time we consider military action.

 

[UNCMSinLS]

I agree.

on a separate but maybe related note, when did we get to the point that we have to celebrate veterans every day of the year and at every sporting event?

My father in law was a world war 2 marine in the pacific, my father served in Vietnam and they never seemed to require the daily affirmation of their service that people seem to need now. My father in law never spoke of his service at all until the night we saw Saving Private Ryan and he told some snippets before dissolving into tears. On his deathbed, I got him to tell me more of the story than anyone had ever heard and it was pretty unbelievable. his division was slated to be the first on the beach for the invasion of mainland Japan so he had a pretty strong opinion about the bomb and its use. But outside of his family and friends, nobody would have known he was a veteran

My dad passed away last January from a very rare lung cancer that was almost certainly tied to agent orange from his time in Vietnam. Again, his focus was his career as a physician and not looking back to his time of service aside from wearing a hat on veteran's day.

I certainly honor everyone's service but I do get tired of it being a constant barrage as it is now. I think it takes away from Veteran's day and Memorial Day which is where the country should really put its focus.

again just my opinion.

My father had an Air Force desk job in Japan during the Korean conflict. He didn't want to get shot at or die. He wanted GI bill money to advance his education. He volunteered rather than being drafted so that he would have more choice over what service he went into. He figured he'd be safest on the ground in the Air Force. Everything worked out pretty well for him.

I remember jokingly thanking him for his service. He'd laugh and reply "You're welcome for my service" or "Thank you for thanking me for my service".

 

[finesse]

This is one of the reasons I advocate for a required 2-4 year stint in military/civilian service for EVERY American. This gig should be service first & job second. The military should not only LOOK like America, but it should also BE America. This country would be much better served if every citizen had real skin in the game next time we consider military action.

Not necessarily against it but we need the ERA passed first. If we have a government swayed by evangelical Christians, I shudder at the thoughts of how women might be manipulated in a system like that. The ones that volunteer have a tough enough time and they are a bit more mentally prepared.

I also don't see this working without some serious stretches like calling youth orchestras, math and science research and such national service. You'll also have to look further at what of that can be done at the government's behests and which represent the sort of talents that would be hindered by interference from outside.

 

[finesse]

My father had an Air Force desk job in Japan during the Korean conflict. He didn't want to get shot at or die. He wanted GI bill money to advance his education. He volunteered rather than being drafted so that he would have more choice over what service he went into. He figured he'd be safest on the ground in the Air Force. Everything worked out pretty well for him.

I remember jokingly thanking him for his service. He'd laugh and reply "You're welcome for my service" or "Thank you for thanking me for my service".

The "chair force".