Trump and the Romanovs

  • Thread starter Thread starter rodoheel
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 18
  • Views: 324
  • Politics 
rodoheel

rodoheel

Iconic Member
Messages
1,212
I'm currently listening to the portion of Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast devoted to the Russian Revolution (highly recommend the podcast by the way) and can't help but be struck by the similarities between Trumpworld and the waning days of the Romanov Dynasty between 1906 and 1917. Leaving aside the geopolitical situation, the major problems in this period included:
  • A small, insular ruling dynasty that refused any attempts at reform or compromise and reflexively concentrated their own authority (and refused to delegate it to anyone else) in times of crisis
  • The outsized influence of a repulsive and manipulative outsider (Rasputin) who gained the confidence of the czar (and especially his wife) and gained outsized influence over their thoughts and decision-making and steered them for his own benefit
  • An increasingly fanatical emphasis on loyalty and obsequiousness rather than competence and ability in staffing key governmental positions
  • Cycling through ministers in key governmental positions so rapidly that any sort of sustained or consistent policy was impossible
  • A complete refusal to even consider, much less engage with, their own failings even as they became obvious to everyone else around them
From 1906 through 1914 or so, none of these things were causing any obvious decline in the Russian Empire, and in fact the Romanovs generally believed they were doing a great job. But when WWI broke out, and the country needed to shift into wartime production and supply for a huge standing army, it quickly became clear that these pervasive issues had hollowed out the effectiveness of the government and made it impossible for the country to effectively operate in a time of crisis. And we all know where it went from there.

I don't know if any sort of national or international crisis like WWI will break out while Trump is President. We got a sneak preview from COVID of what might happen, and it didn't go well. But now, with Trumpworld working even harder to undermine the effectiveness of the government, it could get bad, quickly, if something happens. That's my great concern for how the next couple decades could unfold in our country - things might get worse very slowly, and then with the right internal or external stiumli, things could get a whole lot worse all at once.
 
rodoheel said:
From 1906 through 1914 or so, none of these things were causing any obvious decline in the Russian Empire, and in fact the Romanovs generally believed they were doing a great job.
Click to expand...

The great thing about Democracy is that elections allow you to move on from weak leadership or at least the opportunity thru elections.

I have to wonder about this podcast thou. The Romanovs knew with the 1905 Revolution how bad things were. They even allowed a new constitution I believe at that point. If nothing else, the Czar knew with the assassination of a previous Czar (his Grandfather I think) which wasn't that many years before 1905 that something was bad wrong.

As to Rasputin, yep a mistake. But rightly or wrongly, they had reasons to believe he could heal their sick son who meant everything to stability. They knew without the son, that the country would come apart. So combined with the son's I'll health the 1905 revolution, and the assassination.........I don't see how they thought everything was going well. Oh, I believe there might have even been regular assassination attempts on Czar Nicholas.
 
CRHeel94 said:
Interesting. I read the Rise and Fall of the third Reich last year...found some eerie parallels to late 20s Europe and the rise of fascism and current times.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've considered those parallels myself. It doesn't hurt that the worst elements of Trumpworld (what I could call the Steve Bannon/Stephen Miller wing of the tent) basically expresses open admiration of the Nazis' political rise and tactics.

I always try to caution myself not to get caught up in things like this - history is long and varied, and you can find parallels between current times and just about anything you want if you try hard enough. But one can't help thinking about these things as you study and learn about history.
 
I had that book on my reading queue for the longest time...really long book, starts reading that in late November 2023...finished around February. Wasn't reading it for any particular reason other than it had been in my queue for a long time (have always been interested in that period between the two world wars).
 
BlueSmoke said:
The great thing about Democracy is that elections allow you to move on from weak leadership or at least the opportunity thru elections.

I have to wonder about this podcast thou. The Romanovs knew with the 1905 Revolution how bad things were. They even allowed a new constitution I believe at that point. If nothing else, the Czar knew with the assassination of a previous Czar (his Grandfather I think) which wasn't that many years before 1905 that something was bad wrong.

As to Rasputin, yep a mistake. But rightly or wrongly, they had reasons to believe he could heal their sick son who meant everything to stability. They knew without the son, that the country would come apart. So combined with the son's I'll health the 1905 revolution, and the assassination.........I don't see how they thought everything was going well. Oh, I believe there might have even been regular assassination attempts on Czar Nicholas.
Click to expand...
The podcast covers this in detail. The democratic reforms in 1906 (which the czar felt were forced upon him) were eroded in the following years, starting with the coup of June 1907 when the constitution was re-written to make it less democratic. When prime minister Piotr Stolypin (whose proposed reforms were largely opposed and obstructed by the czar and his reactionary allies anyway) was assassinated, the czar essentially took back firmer control of the government by appointing a series of weaker prime minsters who were essentially puppets. The czar and his wife believed that him continuing to take back more control (and shutting any other "liberals" and reformers out of the government) was the best thing for Russia.

It is also important to remember that as a fundamental bedrock principle of their entire worldview, the czar (and his wife) believed that he was ordained and chosen by God to be the leader of the Russian people and that anything other than his absolute control over the country was an affront to God and the natural order of the world.
 
Big fan of his podcast although I've fallen behind in my listening. It looks like you're listening to season 10. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll give it a listen.
 
I listened to a podcast about the French Revolution and that I recognized some possible parallels with the current situation in the US.
 
So when things fall apart, who do you see rebelling? MAGA world or Dem libs? Or do you see them descending into civil war? In Russia it was the lefties.
 
Kingpin said:
So when things fall apart, who do you see rebelling? MAGA world or Dem libs? Or do you see them descending into civil war? In Russia it was the lefties.
Click to expand...
It could be a combination of both. If things go really bad, don’t look for the current allegiances to hold.

Consider the Bernie voters who are now diehard MAGAs. There are plenty in the MAGA tent who aren’t traditional conservatives. A lot of them are simply looking for a person to fix all of their problems and are persuadable by a strong personality.

That said, Fox News will continue to steer them.
 
rodoheel said:
It is also important to remember that as a fundamental bedrock principle of their entire worldview, the czar (and his wife) believed that he was ordained and chosen by God to be the leader of the Russian people and that anything other than his absolute control over the country was an affront to God and the natural order of the world.
Click to expand...
I love it when it blows up in the faces of people who believe shit like that...
 
rodoheel said:
I'm currently listening to the portion of Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast devoted to the Russian Revolution (highly recommend the podcast by the way) and can't help but be struck by the similarities between Trumpworld and the waning days of the Romanov Dynasty between 1906 and 1917. Leaving aside the geopolitical situation, the major problems in this period included:
  • A small, insular ruling dynasty that refused any attempts at reform or compromise and reflexively concentrated their own authority (and refused to delegate it to anyone else) in times of crisis
  • The outsized influence of a repulsive and manipulative outsider (Rasputin) who gained the confidence of the czar (and especially his wife) and gained outsized influence over their thoughts and decision-making and steered them for his own benefit
  • An increasingly fanatical emphasis on loyalty and obsequiousness rather than competence and ability in staffing key governmental positions
  • Cycling through ministers in key governmental positions so rapidly that any sort of sustained or consistent policy was impossible
  • A complete refusal to even consider, much less engage with, their own failings even as they became obvious to everyone else around them
From 1906 through 1914 or so, none of these things were causing any obvious decline in the Russian Empire, and in fact the Romanovs generally believed they were doing a great job. But when WWI broke out, and the country needed to shift into wartime production and supply for a huge standing army, it quickly became clear that these pervasive issues had hollowed out the effectiveness of the government and made it impossible for the country to effectively operate in a time of crisis. And we all know where it went from there.

I don't know if any sort of national or international crisis like WWI will break out while Trump is President. We got a sneak preview from COVID of what might happen, and it didn't go well. But now, with Trumpworld working even harder to undermine the effectiveness of the government, it could get bad, quickly, if something happens. That's my great concern for how the next couple decades could unfold in our country - things might get worse very slowly, and then with the right internal or external stiumli, things could get a whole lot worse all at once.
Click to expand...
The ass-whooping Japan put on Russia in the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War should have told the Romanovs that things were bad in the Russian “Empire.”

Lord, the Japanese sank or captured nearly the entire Russian Navy during this 18-month “war”…….took the Russian Baltic Fleet 8+ months to sail to the beat-down…..they had to split the fleet (part going through the Suez and part around South Africa BECAUSE the Russian battleships didn’t meet design standards and wouldn’t fit thru the Suez)…….the beat-down in one battle, Strait of Tsushima, was likely the most devastating “modern” battleship battle ever.

The Russo-Japanese War showed Russia was not a modern power.
 
Zoo_View said:
The ass-whooping Japan put on Russia in the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War should have told the Romanovs that things were bad in the Russian “Empire.”

Lord, the Japanese sank or captured nearly the entire Russian Navy during this 18-month “war”…….took the Russian Baltic Fleet 8+ months to sail to the beat-down…..they had to split the fleet (part going through the Suez and part around South Africa BECAUSE the Russian battleships didn’t meet design standards and wouldn’t fit thru the Suez)…….the beat-down in one battle, Strait of Tsushima, was likely the most devastating “modern” battleship battle ever.

The Russo-Japanese War showed Russia was not a modern power.
Click to expand...
Yes, and that was the direct trigger for the Revolution of 1905, which is what caused the czar to accept reforms including a new constitution and the national Duma. But I don't think it was really in Nicholas's DNA to ever consider that he was dragging the empire down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top