U.S. Budget & OBBB | OCT 1 - Gov’t Shutdown Begins

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SnoopRob said:
The alternative is not to pick a fight you can't win.

If this is the best Dems could do, then every day they didn't fold previously was a failure.
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Agreed. They shouldn't have picked the fight. But they did. And every day they didn't fold was a failure.

But they did achieve certain political objectives and most of the harm will be undone.

Was it a good idea? No.

Was it worth it? No.

But here we are. Eight senators will vote to reopen the government and Newsom and AOC and every other 2028 contender will complain about how terrible status quo Democrats are in order to promote their faux outsider image.
 
The way this ended was easy to predict as the side that wants a clean CR always "wins" the shutdown and the side that tries to use the shutdown as leverage for something it wants always loses. This is the first time the Rs favored simply voting on a clean CR; opening the government; and continue negotiating on the issue of the day.

Dems though got a big victory last Tuesday.
 
C-Money said:
What else were they supposed to do when the other side doesn't give a damn if people don't get paid and kids don't have food? How long were they going to let it go? They tried to get something better but it didn't work because the Pubs just don't care about most Americans. That should be the message here.
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Again, the point is that the suffering inflicted on Americans didn't justify the gains won.

It's not "How long should this have been allowed to continue?", it's "If this was the best achievable outcome, it should have never been done to start with."
 
SnoopRob said:
Again, the point is that the suffering inflicted on Americans didn't justify the gains won.

It's not "How long should this have been allowed to continue?", it's "If this was the best achievable outcome, it should have never been done to start with."
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So they were supposed to know that ahead of time? I don't see how anyone can blame the Dems when it's the Pubs that have shown over and over they don't give a damn about most Americans.
 
sunnyheel said:
I’m curious about your framing. Is it your stance that left = pugilist and moderate = compromising?

I would note that Dick Durbin, considered very left, voted Yes while Warner and Kelly, both moderates, voted No.
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I agree position on the spectrum didn't seem to have much impact on who caved and who didn't. It appears to me, though, that most of the anger about the cave is coming from the lefter groups in the coalition. But that may be because those groups are just more generally engaged.
 
CFordUNC said:
I totally understand feeling this way right now, but I've got to very respectfully but very firmly say that I disagree with this very strongly. Another year's worth of watching ICE thugs patrolling American streets and harassing American citizens and detaining people extrajudicially, another year's worth of seeing every single aspect of life become completely unaffordable for everyone but the upper-middle and upper classes, and another year's worth of watching Donald Trump and his Republican enablers trampling all over the U.S. Constitution, will cause there to be zero turnout problem for Democrats next November.
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Upon reflection, I think you are probably right. I was more focused on the immediate loss of Dem enthusiasm that we had last week and worried it would carry over into the 2026 campaign season. I still think there will be loss of enthusiasm in the short term, but maybe Trump's continuing assault on our democracy will rekindle our enthusiasm in the Spring or early Summer.
 
heelinhell said:
Upon reflection, I think you are probably right. I was more focused on the immediate loss of Dem enthusiasm that we had last week and worried it would carry over into the 2026 campaign season. I still think there will be loss of enthusiasm in the short term, but maybe Trump's continuing assault on our democracy will rekindle our enthusiasm in the Spring or early Summer.
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It is an eternity from now.
 
heelinhell said:
Upon reflection, I think you are probably right. I was more focused on the immediate loss of Dem enthusiasm that we had last week and worried it would carry over into the 2026 campaign season. I still think there will be loss of enthusiasm in the short term, but maybe Trump's continuing assault on our democracy will rekindle our enthusiasm in the Spring or early Summer.
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There are plenty of things that MAGA will do in the next 12 months to piss everyone off. It’s in their DNA. This shutdown wasn’t going to last all the way until the election anyway, or close enough to be THE factor in it.
 
HeelInTheOzarks said:
There are plenty of things that MAGA will do in the next 12 months to piss everyone off. It’s in their DNA. This shutdown wasn’t going to last all the way until the election anyway, or close enough to be THE factor in it.
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True enough, but Trump was panicking and seemed to be ready to order the Senate GQPers to cave and give the Dems credit for forcing the GQPers to end the shutdown and extend the ACA benefits.

I agree the shutdown was not going to carry Dem enthusiasm alone all the way to November. My concern is how much this Dem cave may damper our enthusiasm over the next few months.

Here's hoping Trump will do what he does and reignite the enthusiasm of last week.
 
The cave in by democrats is so disheartening.

I have only skimmed over the last two pages, so I am sure that this point has been talked to death already, but the inability for Jeffries and Schumer to meet this moment has been devastating. The American people spoke this last election and establishment Dems never waste an opportunity to shoot the party in the dick.
 
CFordUNC said:
I totally understand feeling this way right now, but I've got to very respectfully but very firmly say that I disagree with this very strongly. Another year's worth of watching ICE thugs patrolling American streets and harassing American citizens and detaining people extrajudicially, another year's worth of seeing every single aspect of life become completely unaffordable for everyone but the upper-middle and upper classes, and another year's worth of watching Donald Trump and his Republican enablers trampling all over the U.S. Constitution, will cause there to be zero turnout problem for Democrats next November.
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Hard disagree. Another year of atrocity...yes. Will that lead to Dem turnout or enthusiasm? Nope. Because people know Dems ain't shit when it comes to fighting for them. Ever.
 
Ramrouser said:
The way this ended was easy to predict as the side that wants a clean CR always "wins" the shutdown and the side that tries to use the shutdown as leverage for something it wants always loses. This is the first time the Rs favored simply voting on a clean CR; opening the government; and continue negotiating on the issue of the day.

Dems though got a big victory last Tuesday.
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The country still blamed the GOP for the shut down.

So the GOP can't even hang its hat on that.
 
SnoopRob said:
Again, the point is that the suffering inflicted on Americans didn't justify the gains won.

It's not "How long should this have been allowed to continue?", it's "If this was the best achievable outcome, it should have never been done to start with."
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Then the issue of health care would never be discussed like now. And Trump's hatred of snap wouldn't be in the news
 
I just don't understand what Dems were supposed to do. Not do anything? Keep the shutdown going and let people go broke and kids not have food? Seems like some people would be mad with them either way when they really should be mad at Pubs since they are the ones that control Congress, and the ones that weren't going to make things better no matter what the Dems did.
 
aGDevil2k said:
Then the issue of health care would never be discussed like now. And Trump's hatred of snap wouldn't be in the news
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Republicans hate the poor is the "dog bites man" of news stories, it's so well-known that it's not really newsworthy.

Folks will forget this episode by Christmas and it won't really matter anymore.
 
C-Money said:
I just don't understand what Dems were supposed to do. Not do anything? Keep the shutdown going and let people go broke and kids not have food? Seems like some people would be mad with them either way when they really should be mad at Pubs since they are the ones that control Congress, and the ones that weren't going to make things better no matter what the Dems did.
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What folks like me want is for Dems to have a plan when engaging in these situations. Namely...

- To know what "winning" looks like going into the situation
- To message consistently why they are doing what they're doing and why it is important
- Top have a realistic plan of how to meet the goal that defines "winning"
- To stick together until the party has "won" the situation
- To avoid these situations if the above can't be defined and met

But Dems fail to meet those 5 simple criteria the majority of the time.
 
The left is being ridiculous. In March: "Schumer is a pussy. He's blown our leverage." Then he uses the leverage and people are complaining about the fight.

There was zero chance that this could turn out differently once Trump dug in. Because he enjoys hurting people and Dems do not. It's like doing an S&M roleplay with Jeffrey Dahmer. But making Trump broadcast to the world that he's a sociopath can't hurt. Eventually, maybe, some of his base will begin to suspect that maybe he isn't one of them after all
 
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