Ukraine War

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It's not 100%, nor close, IMO. Give credit where credit is due.

China and Russia have long understood the core bigotries at the heart of a pluralizing society, particularly within the populism seeking demo. Both China and Russia have a better functional grasp on human mass psychology than Americans/US Gov. Additionally "American exceptionalism" was always an insidiousness and self serving self-pat-on-the-back, destined to result in getting caught with our pants down, and offering a wide-ass-open door for disinformation and the seeds of schism. We've known this for a decade+, but folks would rather lean into grievances and insecurities than take a beat and review where this logically ends. Something about leading a horse to water ...
Those are really good points. I'm as guilty as anyone of believing in American exceptionalism at times but I think you nailed it here. Russia and China have successfully waged an infiltration of American government, over the course of decades, without needing to fire a single shot. Guess Nikita Krushchev was right.
 
Those are really good points. I'm as guilty as anyone of believing in American exceptionalism at times but I think you nailed it here. Russia and China have successfully waged an infiltration of American government, over the course of decades, without needing to fire a single shot. Guess Nikita Krushchev was right.
The moment you think of yourself as a "chosen one", or shall we say "a shining city on a hill", you've authored a beefy chapter in the explainer of your downfall.

Not a particularly insightful point, rather, just a cursory study of human civilization and particularly empires.
 
It's not 100%, nor close, IMO. Give credit where credit is due.

China and Russia have long understood the core bigotries at the heart of a pluralizing society, particularly within the populism seeking demo. Both China and Russia have a better functional grasp on human mass psychology than Americans/US Gov. Any government has incentive for cynicism, but the US gov and populous has never fully grasped cynicism like China and Russia. "American exceptionalism" was always an insidiousness and self serving self-pat-on-the-back, destined to result in getting caught with our pants down, and offering a wide-ass-open door for disinformation and the seeds of schism. We've known this for a decade+, but folks would rather lean into grievances and insecurities than take a beat and review where this logically ends. Something about leading a horse to water ...
Easier to call a Democrat a traitor than realize that your kid is hungry because of the person you put in charge. Like you said, Russia and China figured that out a long time ago.
 
Those are really good points. I'm as guilty as anyone of believing in American exceptionalism at times but I think you nailed it here. Russia and China have successfully waged an infiltration of American government, over the course of decades, without needing to fire a single shot. Guess Nikita Krushchev was right.
After 13+ years of living in another country (be it Canada or England) the one thing I have learned is that the world generally thinks of Americans as morons often high on their own supply. That is when they think of America at all, which in general mainly happens when stupid shits like Trump do things. Outside of sports and entertainment, the day to day foreigner thinks of America as little as possible besides the occasional facepalm or shaking their head at another school shooting.

American exceptionalism is not something acknowledged or respected. They recognize the big stick of American power, but they don't envy it.
 
After 13+ years of living in another country (be it Canada or England) the one thing I have learned is that the world generally thinks of Americans as morons often high on their own supply. That is when they think of America at all, which in general mainly happens when stupid shits like Trump do things. Outside of sports and entertainment, the day to day foreigner thinks of America as little as possible besides the occasional facepalm or shaking their head at another school shooting.

American exceptionalism is not something acknowledged or respected. They recognize the big stick of American power, but they don't envy it.
Exactly. I recall when I lived in Europe back in the mid1980’s a British bloke was shaking his head at me saying: “Look what your lot has gone and done now, Yank!” (He was speaking about Ronnie Raygun)
 
For the rest of the board, to the extent that there was even a question in that batshit crazy insane screed of calla’s above, here is what I would’ve liked to have seen done on Russia and Ukraine.

First of all, I would have liked to have seen each of our last three presidential administrations be a whole hell of a lot tougher on Russia. Mitt Romney was 100% correct that Russia is our biggest geopolitical enemy and should always be treated as such; I thought it was ludicrous and absurd that Obama was so dismissive of that. As someone who came up Republican and conservative in the 1990’s and 2000’s, it has always been pretty clear to me that Russia should be treated like an outright enemy. There is not another country on the planet who is more willing to invade the sovereignty of other countries, or more willing to blatantly interfere with the democratic processes in other countries. I would have liked to have seen us respond more harshly and with more urgency to Putin’s invasion of Crimea in 2014.

As it pertains to Ukraine, I think that we collectively- Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike- have completely let them down across two administrations now. We should have completely opened up the spigot of giving them whatever weapons and aid they needed whenever they needed it, and not imposed any restrictions on how and where they could use it. Yes, we have supplied billions upon billions of dollars worth of weaponry, but it has still been pretty much a half measure that has allowed them to keep the Russians somewhat at bay but never have any legitimate chance of defeating them or pushing them out of Ukraine. We are going to look back on that as a colossal failure, because Russia is not going to stop with Ukraine. We had an opportunity to permanently destroy the economy and the military strength of our primary geopolitical foe for essentially pennies on the dollar, without putting a single American boot or a single drop of American blood, on the ground. We should have essentially given Ukraine a blank check as it pertains to weaponry, and we should have imposed draconian economic sanctions to thoroughly choke and starve Russia to death, if need be. The only person on the planet who is more full of shit about using nuclear weapons than Vladimir Putin, is Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration’s inability to publicly blame Russia for the invasion of Ukraine- and their willingness to imply that Ukraine is at fault in the same way one might imply that a rape victim is at fault- is feckless, cowardly, and enormously detrimental to the future of the United States’ leadership and influence on the world stage.
Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
 
Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
He should continue to neuter the Russian army by continuing to support Ukraine, although I'd like to see him be a bit more aggressive in allowing Ukraine to take the fight to Russia. That did get better in the last part of Biden's term and I understand his initial caution, but overall Biden wasn't aggressive enough. We've spent about $90 billion over the past three years, or a little over 10% of one year's worth of our defense budget, on Ukraine. It's the best defense money we've spent in my lifetime in terms of weakening our enemies and getting real time information on modern battlefield techniques, what works and what doesn't, and we haven't had to spend one American life. The money we've spent on sending them armaments has in large part come from weapons we'd have to decommission and re-supply anyway and is helping to keep our defense industry in good shape. It has additional knock off effects such as making China re-think their plan to attack Taiwan. As long as Ukraine wants to fight we should support that.
 
Great armchair quarterbacking there. Any idiot could look back and say what we should have done although your play calling was JV level. The question was what do you think trump should do NOW - as in going forward? Any thoughts at all besides since you feel he is screwing up?
You think I'm actually interested in having a discussion with you after that complete and utter batshit insanity you screeched out at midnight last night? You aren't going to get me to have a nuanced policy discussion with you by desperately following me around like a dog in heat hurling juvenile insults at me. You want me to answer questions on policy positions? You figure out a better way to ask it or don't waste my time. I'm happy to have discussions, debates, and civil disagreements with people whom I respect. I have less than zero respect for you. If anything, I have immense pity for you. I feel sorry for you.

Go get some help, buddy. Seriously. Do it for yourself, do it for your family. You're not well.
 
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You think I'm actually interested in having a discussion with you after that complete and utter batshit insanity you screeched out at midnight last night? You aren't going to get me to have a nuanced policy discussion with you by desperately following me around like a dog in heat hurling juvenile insults at me. You want me to answer questions on policy positions? You figure out a better way to ask it or don't waste my time. I'm happy to have discussions, debates, and civil disagreements with people whom I respect. I have less than zero respect for you. If anything, I have immense pity for you. I feel sorry for you.

Go get some help, buddy. Seriously. Do it for yourself, do it for your family. You're not well.
You sound really paranoid and cringy with your "following me" schtick. I guess that's a deflection tactic. My interactions with you are due to your blatant hypocrisy that seemingly has skyrocketed in frequency, and the over the top hyperbole (I mean its approaching CF levels). Are you politicking for some hidden board award that goes to the most hysterical and hyperbolic poster? You engage me in a civil and serious manner and I will always reciprocate. There are those on here who are always civil and serious and I always treat them in like kind. You were no different until after the election and thats when you became more Shannon and less NYC. As for your respect, meh, I'm a conservative engaging on a liberal board. Respect for any conservative is fleeting around here but conservatives on here know that so its all good.
 
Ukraine really has not resorted to terrorism in this war unlike Russia which just yesterday launched a pretty big drone assault on Ukraine cities (perhaps in concert with Trump administration comments).

Ukraine has drones that can reach Moscow. If the Trump/Putin dance gets out of hand, look for Ukraine to do some terrorism of its own as a response.
 
He should continue to neuter the Russian army by continuing to support Ukraine, although I'd like to see him be a bit more aggressive in allowing Ukraine to take the fight to Russia. That did get better in the last part of Biden's term and I understand his initial caution, but overall Biden wasn't aggressive enough. We've spent about $90 billion over the past three years, or a little over 10% of one year's worth of our defense budget, on Ukraine. It's the best defense money we've spent in my lifetime in terms of weakening our enemies and getting real time information on modern battlefield techniques, what works and what doesn't, and we haven't had to spend one American life. The money we've spent on sending them armaments has in large part come from weapons we'd have to decommission and re-supply anyway and is helping to keep our defense industry in good shape. It has additional knock off effects such as making China re-think their plan to attack Taiwan. As long as Ukraine wants to fight we should support that.
I don't necessarily disagree with you and you make a good point about the price of battlefield information we have obtained. I don't support his public position on the beginning point of a brokered deal and his treating ukraine as irrelevant to the discussions. However, I do have some major heartburn about not forcing Europe to shoulder more of the financial burden. I have a great deal of criticism of biden in the months leading up to the invasion, but not so much in the support other than as you said him not being more aggressive. I don't think biden was mentally capable of doing much beyond providing weapons. I do think Putin, if pushed to where he was going to be defeated or publicly humiliated, would have used battlefield nukes so I'm aware that being to aggressive could have led to a bad outcome and then what is the response? I would like to see trump continue or even increase the support for ukraine while having a sense of urgency to broker a deal. At what point does the support stop? Another year? Two? Five? There has to be an ending to it.
 
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