We have questions; who has answers?

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superrific

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Seems like not a bad idea to have a generic Q&A thread. Might help with innocuous thread hijacks (i.e. when a person asks a tangential question of another poster, not at all maliciously, but then the discussion gets mixed up with the thread topic). So ask random questions. Hopefully people who know will answer. Ideally, if you don't actually know the answer, you would refrain from answering. If you'd like to expand on the question, OK. If you'd like to stab at it, it can't hurt so long as you are explicit about the basis and source of this "knowledge."

Here's mine, to start. Why is WR a difficult position to play in the NFL? It's said that most players need a season or two to adjust from the college game because the transition is difficult. I don't get it. I'm sure I'm missing something. Leave aside the athleticism -- that's obvious. Lots of guys have off the charts athleticism; only some become great WRs.

So when I see highlights of great receivers, great "route runners," I see guys who run forward for a few yards, and then sit down or cut one way or the other. Sometimes they are trying to beat a defender; sometimes they are finding the "soft spot" in the coverage. Either way, it just doesn't seem that complicated. I mean, I'm not saying that anyone can step in and do it, but NFL WRs have a lot of experience. They've played college ball for years, most at a high level. Then they've had training camps, and preseason, and practice throughout the year -- so in Week 10, let's say, after all of that practice over months and years, what's the barrier? I know that defenses have lots of different packages and coverages, but again these are professionals who have been doing this at the highest level for years and years.

Appreciate any insight.
 
WR is one of the easier positions to excel at as a young player. Malik Nabers and Marvin Harrison Jr have wasted no time lighting it up this year.

The general rule I’ve always heard is, if you look at where the players are lined up pre-snap, with the center/QB right on the ball, and you work your way out further from the ball out to where the wide receivers and DBs are, the transition from one level of football to the next is tougher the closer you are to the ball. And easier the further you are from the ball.

Definitely true from high school to college where OL and DL typically take the longest time to develop at the college level.
 
What I know is nothing. What I've read is that the biggest differences is the precision you run your routes and the quality of your cuts. It's not run 10-12 yards and cut right, it's run ten yards, plant hard and cut sharp so you are right between defenders and the main guy is on your hip and not your shoulder. Do that every play even if you know you aren't in the play. Just stuff like that . Mostly establishing a consistency that the QB can count on.
 
superrific said:
So when I see highlights of great receivers, great "route runners," I see guys who run forward for a few yards, and then sit down or cut one way or the other. Sometimes they are trying to beat a defender; sometimes they are finding the "soft spot" in the coverage. Either way, it just doesn't seem that complicated.
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Much of it has to do with understanding the ideal moment to accelerate, decelerate, and body-up in order to sell routes and manipulate the defenders’ posture. John Ross ran the fastest 40 in combine history, but never learned to square his routes and read DBs body posture/balance.

In this day and age, all pro DBs are pretty damn fast, and unless you’re Tyreek Hill fast you rarely have substantial separation advantage with speed, alone. Mike Evans is a stiff running, 6’5”, 30 yo WR, yet has one of the largest separation scores in the game, because he manipulates DBs into off balance postures before breaking his routes the opposite direction. Travis Kelce has made a living manipulating safeties and LBs, despite running a 4.61 at the combine, and only getting slower, since.

The WR question isn’t terribly different from asking how Luka Doncic gets to any spot on the floor, despite pretty poor lateral mobility - nobody in the game does a better job with angles, setup, and acceleration/decel.
 
HeelingAg said:
Much of it has to do with understanding the ideal moment to accelerate, decelerate, and body-up in order to sell routes and manipulate the defenders’ posture. John Ross ran the fastest 40 in combine history, but never learned to square his routes and read DBs body posture/balance.

In this day and age, all pro DBs are pretty damn fast, and unless you’re Tyreek Hill fast you rarely have substantial separation advantage with speed, alone. Mike Evans is a stiff running, 6’5”, 30 yo WR, yet has one of the largest separation scores in the game, because he manipulates DBs into off balance postures before breaking his routes the opposite direction. Travis Kelce has made a living manipulating safeties and LBs, despite running a 4.61 at the combine, and only getting slower, since.

The WR question isn’t terribly different from asking how Luka Doncic gets to any spot on the floor, despite pretty poor lateral mobility - nobody in the game does a better job with angles, setup, and acceleration/decel.
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Well, that last bit brings up another question, but let's stay on topic here. OK, the WRs have to confuse defenders. That would have been my answer (only for lack of another) but I don't fully understand it. It just doesn't sound hard to do with practice.

To be clear: I'm not saying that a hundred billion dollar industry employing hundreds if not thousands of professional analysts, to say nothing of the hundreds or thousands of players, has been doing it the wrong way. It's just that when I see it, I don't understand why every WR couldn't do that with the daily reps they do for years on end. At the same time, lots of things experts do aren't visible to the amateur eye.

Let's go back to your Mike Evans example (who I've never really watched). Is he using an instinct as to timing that other WRs just don't have? Does he have a special talent for seeing the DBs body movement sort of before it happens?
 
  • HeelingAg said:
    Much of it has to do with understanding the ideal moment to accelerate, decelerate, and body-up in order to sell routes and manipulate the defenders’ posture. John Ross ran the fastest 40 in combine history, but never learned to square his routes and read DBs body posture/balance.

    In this day and age, all pro DBs are pretty damn fast, and unless you’re Tyreek Hill fast you rarely have substantial separation advantage with speed, alone. Mike Evans is a stiff running, 6’5”, 30 yo WR, yet has one of the largest separation scores in the game, because he manipulates DBs into off balance postures before breaking his routes the opposite direction. Travis Kelce has made a living manipulating safeties and LBs, despite running a 4.61 at the combine, and only getting slower, since.

    The WR question isn’t terribly different from asking how Luka Doncic gets to any spot on the floor, despite pretty poor lateral mobility - nobody in the game does a better job with angles, setup, and acceleration/decel.
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WR is one of those positions where it's easy to get by on height, speed and athleticism, up to and including in college. I think some players let that go to their heads. Those players, who have been "great" their whole lives, can have a hard time adjusting to the NFL where you don't have a clear physical advantage and, even if you do, NFL defenses are more complex and can generally take all but the best of the best out of a game.

Luka is a point guard built like a small/power forward. Imagine Charles Barkley with crazy ball handling and passing ability... and actually puts effort into improving his game.
 
I think most WRs take time because it's a position that requires you to be in perfect mind meld with the QB... and most QBs already have 2 to 3 WRs on their team who they have already invested significant time into building that level of bond with.

As all have said, WRs aren't just outrunning their DB. They are making precise, sharp cuts at the exact moment the QB is expecting them to do it. In most cases, the ball has already left the QBs hands, and the WR has to make their move at exactly the right time with the ball already on the way, without looking to see if their timing is right.

Then they have to do this every play, even though maybe 1 in 10 to 20 plays will come their way... because the one time they screw up when it is their play, they ain't gonna see the ball again any time soon. The QB is going back to "his guys" he trusts to do what he expects.
 
NYCBlueBlood said:
I think most WRs take time because it's a position that requires you to be in perfect mind meld with the QB... and most QBs already have 2 to 3 WRs on their team who they have already invested significant time into building that level of bond with.

As all have said, WRs aren't just outrunning their DB. They are making precise, sharp cuts at the exact moment the QB is expecting them to do it. In most cases, the ball has already left the QBs hands, and the WR has to make their move at exactly the right time with the ball already on the way, without looking to see if their timing is right.

Then they have to do this every play, even though maybe 1 in 10 to 20 plays will come their way... because the one time they screw up when it is their play, they ain't gonna see the ball again any time soon. The QB is going back to "his guys" he trusts to do what he expects.
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I can see that. It's not just about getting open. It's about getting open at just the right time. So I can see how that could require setting the move up from the moment the ball snaps (or perhaps before), and that requires advanced defense reading -- and both skills could have some differential between the high-IQ and less high-IQ players.

I think this is a pretty good answer to my question. Certainly suffices to quell my curiosity and give me at least some idea. Thanks. Not to diss other responses; this one makes the most intuitive sense to me.
 
Purple Nurple said:
Press coverage, which relates to timing.
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You mean getting through physical play at the line of scrimmage? Sorry, "press coverage" has meant something different to me for a while, especially on this board.

I can see that also. And I think I'm getting several quality answers.
 
superrific said:
Well, that last bit brings up another question, but let's stay on topic here. OK, the WRs have to confuse defenders. That would have been my answer (only for lack of another) but I don't fully understand it. It just doesn't sound hard to do with practice.

To be clear: I'm not saying that a hundred billion dollar industry employing hundreds if not thousands of professional analysts, to say nothing of the hundreds or thousands of players, has been doing it the wrong way. It's just that when I see it, I don't understand why every WR couldn't do that with the daily reps they do for years on end. At the same time, lots of things experts do aren't visible to the amateur eye.

Let's go back to your Mike Evans example (who I've never really watched). Is he using an instinct as to timing that other WRs just don't have? Does he have a special talent for seeing the DBs body movement sort of before it happens?
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I’ll defer to an expert to explain the nuances . Lots of similarities to pitching in this video.

To your questions, likely yes and yes, but I don’t know beyond fairly top end high school level coaching and practice, and decades of closely watching the sport (grew up in a fervent football and gambling household).

Lots of 1% athletes flop in the NFL because once at the pro level they don’t have the practice habits, psychology, situation, etc. to counter the rapid leveling of athletic talents. Nuance becomes more heavily weighted, and nuance typcial comes from technique.
 
Also note that many WR "routes" in the pros aren't set in stone at the snap - there are a lot of "option" routes (where the route can break in two or more different directions based on reading the defense). They only work if the WR and QB read the coverage the same way, and developing that chemistry takes time and effort.

Also the defensive backs in the pros are simply much better than in college. A guy like Tez Walker could get by on size and athleticism and spend most of his time catching wide-open passes. In the NFL things are way more physical; far more catches and releases are physically contested. No alternating between go routes and post routes until one of them happens to be wide open.
 
superrific said:
You mean getting through physical play at the line of scrimmage? Sorry, "press coverage" has meant something different to me for a while, especially on this board.

I can see that also. And I think I'm getting several quality answers.
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Yes. More press coverage in the NFL due to elite DBs. The WR is not where he’s supposed to be, when he’s supposed to be there.
 
rodoheel said:
Also note that many WR "routes" in the pros aren't set in stone at the snap - there are a lot of "option" routes (where the route can break in two or more different directions based on reading the defense). They only work if the WR and QB read the coverage the same way, and developing that chemistry takes time and effort.
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Yes, I was assuming the option routes, but again, reading the defense in itself doesn't seem that hard if you're doing it every day. I think the timing piece is what I was missing.
 
superrific said:
Yes, I was assuming the option routes, but again, reading the defense in itself doesn't seem that hard if you're doing it every day. I think the timing piece is what I was missing.
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I think you would be surprised at how difficult it is to read NFL coverages, especially from the ground level. Far more disguise, and far more elaborate, than college coverages. I think you're really underrating the mental aspect of the NFL game (and that position in particular).
 
rodoheel said:
I think you would be surprised at how difficult it is to read NFL coverages, especially from the ground level. Far more disguise, and far more elaborate, than college coverages. I think you're really underrating the mental aspect of the NFL game (and that position in particular).
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Well, I've never been on the field doing so. And these are decisions made in real time, in a fast game. There's no opportunity to ponder.

At the same time, the players are literally doing it thousands of times per season. A lot of things that look hard -- e.g. juggling -- become much less hard with practice. That's been my overall thought process here. It's not that it's easy; it's that the people involved have so much practice, high quality instruction, etc.

But then again, no matter how much practice and instruction people can get, only a small fraction could ever understand quantum mechanics.
 
As others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with trust from the qb. That takes being predictable for a period of time.
 
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