American Values

MendotoManteo

MendotoManteo

Distinguished Member
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410
I'm about to go out and hopefully meet some beautiful women, but I'll say this:

1. The nation I grew up in - I knew it was a lie after how we reacted to the "Russia hoax." People can say what they want, but there's no getting around "I love it!" I was not particularly young then. Early 30s. But I saw how it seemed hardly anyone cared. I was always thought that no American should ever seek the aid of a foreign government, especially one still considered adversarial at that time at least, to affect our politics. And I thought that we'd all be on the same side should such ever happen. That's when I knew it was "bullshit."

2. The fact you could re-elect such a clearly unqualified person to your highest office, after attempting a coup and, frankly, failing miserably the first time. Brazil took care of this. Brazil! We have to be the first modern, developed nation in history to invite the school shooter back in. And why? Because eggs were priced too high? Get real!

3. The history of the nation has always been this. That should give us solace, but perhaps it shouldn't. The formation of the Constitution was a real battle. It wasn't all "every man created equal," obviously.

4. If we haven't learned yet, we're no different than anyone else. Anything bad that happens anywhere else, it can happen here. The values my parents taught me, the values they taught us in school. Meaningless. Means nothing. Never did. Just lie, cheat, and steal, as long as you can rationalize how it achieves some "ethical" end, in your opinion.

I remember once my ex wife telling me about how she was playing with one of her cousins down in Alabama as youngsters. Around 11, 12, 13 or so. And her cousin no longer wanted to pretend. My ex wife was shocked. She couldn't believe it! How could you no longer want to be a LOTR warrior or whatever? I'd never thought about it that way. Being young and pretending. And when the pretend finally wore out.

Well, I guess that's the way it is.

Sorry, I'm ranting, but this CNN interview below from Fanone, the officer who had a heart attack from his battle with Trump's fascists on Jan. 6th, really hit me this week. Link below. Sorry, I don't know how to properly link like the rest of you. Just copy and paste to browser. Most brutal assessment of the American people I've ever heard on TV, especially the last minute. Listen, please.

I guess, I ask, what are our values? Do we have any? How do we teach future generations of Americans now?

 
I guess, I ask, what are our values? Do we have any? How do we teach future generations of Americans now? FROM POST

Just to focus a bit: I guess you are not asking about the 52% who didn't vote for the POS.

Of the ones who did, we need to remember there was a sizable percentage that voted for the POS holding their nose but didn't like the other Party or whatever.

Of the remaining 35% or so, well yea their values are in question and perhaps always have been.
 
Did you meet any beautiful women? If so I hope this wasn't the topic of conversation.

While I think you have a point - to make a sports analogy, at some point you are what your record says you are - I want to think that we're just in a really bad time politically and socially. But you have to also acknowledge that some of these trends are global.

I'm way less conservative than I used to be, but - current leadership notwithstanding - I am proud to be an American, and I DO think we're different. Exceptional? Probably not. But our melting pot is still an experiment that is really not being done on the same scale elsewhere, and it isn't easy. Somewhere smoldering under all this ugliness exists the "American Spirit" and good American values. We just have to survive the next 4 (hopefully only 4) years. And I actually think the disaster that is in front of us is an opportunity to re-establish what we can be.
 
heelwithnoname said:
Did you meet any beautiful women? If so I hope this wasn't the topic of conversation.

While I think you have a point - to make a sports analogy, at some point you are what your record says you are - I want to think that we're just in a really bad time politically and socially. But you have to also acknowledge that some of these trends are global.

I'm way less conservative than I used to be, but - current leadership notwithstanding - I am proud to be an American, and I DO think we're different. Exceptional? Probably not. But our melting pot is still an experiment that is really not being done on the same scale elsewhere, and it isn't easy. Somewhere smoldering under all this ugliness exists the "American Spirit" and good American values. We just have to survive the next 4 (hopefully only 4) years. And I actually think the disaster that is in front of us is an opportunity to re-establish what we can be.
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Every time it starts to surface, fundamentalist Christianity has a so called Great Awakening that stifles it. I guess they need a security blanket too much.
 
heelwithnoname said:
But our melting pot is still an experiment that is really not being done on the same scale elsewhere, and it isn't easy. Somewhere smoldering under all this ugliness exists the "American Spirit" and good American values.
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Can you further expand on this bit?
 
heelwithnoname said:
Did you meet any beautiful women? If so I hope this wasn't the topic of conversation.

While I think you have a point - to make a sports analogy, at some point you are what your record says you are - I want to think that we're just in a really bad time politically and socially. But you have to also acknowledge that some of these trends are global.

I'm way less conservative than I used to be, but - current leadership notwithstanding - I am proud to be an American, and I DO think we're different. Exceptional? Probably not. But our melting pot is still an experiment that is really not being done on the same scale elsewhere, and it isn't easy. Somewhere smoldering under all this ugliness exists the "American Spirit" and good American values. We just have to survive the next 4 (hopefully only 4) years. And I actually think the disaster that is in front of us is an opportunity to re-establish what we can be.
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Thank you for your wonderful response!

Yes, I did meet beautiful women. Got two numbers. Gals like talk about cooking rosemary cinnamon red skin potatoes. (My own concoction.) And, no, I did not talk about this topic. In fact, I made it a point to punch this thread out (which, I admit, was largely a rant more than anything) before I left precisely because I did not want to be morbid. Worked out.

I get what you're saying. We're no exception. But that's kind of my point. I was taught that we were an exception. At least when it came to values. I realize that's always been complicated. You go to the founding, the Civil War, Jim Crow, etc. It's a mythology, just like anywhere else.

But the mythology has been exposed. Sure, other presidents were slave owners or directed ethnic cleansing or a number of other awful things, but they at least acted the part of the myth. Trump stripped it bare.

I don't have children. Likely never will. But how do you teach a child, much like we were once ourselves, things like honor, compassion, empathy, bravery, etc. when that veil has been ripped? And all you see there is just this weird, little guy speaking into a horn who thinks he's the Wizard of Oz?

I don't see how values like honesty can move forward in our culture. Because Trump has made it so clear that it's a negative to your self-interest when you can get away with it. Granted, he's just a symptom. Not the cancer. But it does make you wonder if we're heading towards a culture of sociopathy.
 
heelwithnoname said:
Did you meet any beautiful women? If so I hope this wasn't the topic of conversation.

While I think you have a point - to make a sports analogy, at some point you are what your record says you are - I want to think that we're just in a really bad time politically and socially. But you have to also acknowledge that some of these trends are global.

I'm way less conservative than I used to be, but - current leadership notwithstanding - I am proud to be an American, and I DO think we're different. Exceptional? Probably not. But our melting pot is still an experiment that is really not being done on the same scale elsewhere, and it isn't easy. Somewhere smoldering under all this ugliness exists the "American Spirit" and good American values. We just have to survive the next 4 (hopefully only 4) years. And I actually think the disaster that is in front of us is an opportunity to re-establish what we can be.
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America isn’t special. Probably never was.

Being located between two oceans with tremendous natural resources isn’t divine or heroic.

At one time the idea of America was great, even if it was mostly a myth, but we don’t even have that now.

I derive no particular pride from being born here.
 
I think we're looking at things wide scope, and that's my fault. Perhaps it's better to look at our own families. I remember my mom and dad teaching me morality and ethics. Right was right. Wrong was wrong.

There seemed a turning point after Jan. 6th with my dad. I thought he was opposed to such, as he expressed at the time.

And I go back home for the holidays (I live in California now), only to see this man who has become the proverbial "old man yelling at clouds." He even said he wished Biden had been shot by "them" instead of Trump. He was all riled up about that school bus shooting in Charlotte in December. Like it was a sign of the end of the world or something. Didn't matter what I said regarding actual crime statistics.

I see now that neither of my parents are good people. Never have been. They're just people. Flawed, vulnerable, and reactive.

I remember shooting a little blue bird once from a tree with my pellet gun as a boy. I was very proud. I had accomplished something! I went to Dad, and he just looked at me and said, "Why in the world would you do that?"

It's been very difficult reckoning such compassion with such harm. How do you move a family forward, given all the values it exposes are proven lies?
 
Do we say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore? How do you do that now? Sure, we'll do it, because it's always been about indoctrination.

But at least our assholes prior were just selling us out to other Americans. Or at least pretended to do so. This guy selling us out to everyone, and not even pretending. And no one will stop it. Because not enough of us care.

In the end, I think the irony of MAGA will be that it unravels the mythology of America for everyone, even the dummies. Sure, they'll still wave the flag. Put on America themed shirts with beer cans sprawled across them at the Fourth.

But even they will know that it's all just a lie. It's about the self. And that's just one way a culture and country unravels.
 
MendotoManteo said:
I think we're looking at things wide scope, and that's my fault. Perhaps it's better to look at our own families. I remember my mom and dad teaching me morality and ethics. Right was right. Wrong was wrong.

There seemed a turning point after Jan. 6th with my dad. I thought he was opposed to such, as he expressed at the time.

And I go back home for the holidays (I live in California now), only to see this man who has become the proverbial "old man yelling at clouds." He even said he wished Biden had been shot by "them" instead of Trump. He was all riled up about that school bus shooting in Charlotte in December. Like it was a sign of the end of the world or something. Didn't matter what I said regarding actual crime statistics.

I see now that neither of my parents are good people. Never have been. They're just people. Flawed, vulnerable, and reactive.

I remember shooting a little blue bird once from a tree with my pellet gun as a boy. I was very proud. I had accomplished something! I went to Dad, and he just looked at me and said, "Why in the world would you do that?"

It's been very difficult reckoning such compassion with such harm. How do you move a family forward, given all the values it exposes are proven lies?
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One of the key points of my growth into adulthood has been my acknowledgment (and acceptance) of the fact that my parents are just people, like you say. With all the flaws that every other human has. Probably a realization that most everyone comes to at some point, but it was somewhat profound for me as I reckoned with the questions of how they could continue to be Republicans despite teaching me the opposite values.
 
I think America has never had a reckoning between the radical small r republican stated principles of our founding and the small c conservative, antidemocratic, imperialist practices that it enacted.

It may be time to settle that particular account.
 
Paine said:
One of the key points of my growth into adulthood has been my acknowledgment (and acceptance) of the fact that my parents are just people, like you say. With all the flaws that every other human has. Probably a realization that most everyone comes to at some point, but it was somewhat profound for me as I reckoned with the questions of how they could continue to be Republicans despite teaching me the opposite values.
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You're a very thoughtful poster, Paine. We've not interacted much, but I always enjoy your posts. How old are you, by the way? I think you're a younger man.

Yes, it's a difficult recognition. Our parents are just people. And perhaps we are too. I mean, it's not like I'm doing anything for change other than just posting here.

I started the Socialism/Communism thread. You've posted there. I never mentioned that I was once a member of CPUSA. While I still sympathize with them and the movement, I don't consider myself a socialist or communist anymore. I'm not a member of a union. I don't advocate. I'm just a "good soldier," for capital.

But to your point: yes, it is quite a revelation when you finally realize your parents are just people.
 
StrangePackage said:
I think America has never had a reckoning between the radical small r republican stated principles of our founding and the small c conservative, antidemocratic, imperialist practices that it enacted.

It may be time to settle that particular account.
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You sound like John Brown. He said this country needed a "reckoning." It got it shortly after with the Civil War, which Ken Burns did such an astounding job of portraying. (Patriotic Treason: John Brown and the Soul of America, by Evan Carton, a great book.)

Obviously, that wasn't enough. And a reckoning is warranted. I believe in reckonings. But reckonings come with great cost. Almost like apocalypse.

What do you mean when you think we need a reckoning?
 
MendotoManteo said:
You're a very thoughtful poster, Paine. We've not interacted much, but I always enjoy your posts. How old are you, by the way? I think you're a younger man.

Yes, it's a difficult recognition. Our parents are just people. And perhaps we are too. I mean, it's not like I'm doing anything for change other than just posting here.

I started the Socialism/Communism thread. You've posted there. I never mentioned that I was once a member of CPUSA. While I still sympathize with them and the movement, I don't consider myself a socialist or communist anymore. I'm not a member of a union. I don't advocate. I'm just a "good soldier," for capital.

But to your point: yes, it is quite a revelation when you finally realize your parents are just people.
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Just turned 25 last year. I enjoy your posts as well; thanks for continuing to share your thoughts.

I’m largely in the same place as you. I’m a dues-paying member of DSA, though the organization has its fair share of shortcomings. I’m not nearly as active in it as I should be.

Working for a nonprofit has made me slightly more comfortable with the position I play in our capitalist system, much more comfortable than I was during my time working in politics. I would love to be involved in a union but the opportunities for that for people in my profession seem to be few and far between, especially in NC.

Think the closest thing to my politics would be “liberal socialist,” though many may consider that a misnomer due to the historical path that socialism was forced through.

It may be my age or naivety (as some here have said), but I think there is still a possibility for an American redemption. Even at this late hour, we are the closest thing to a multi-racial democracy that the world has seen (India also has potential there if they can get out from under the yoke of Hindu nationalism).

We have a tradition in this country, but it has to be revived. Tom Paine, John Brown, Gene Debs, Malcolm X, MLK. That’s part of what I’m trying to do by posting on this board. American liberals need to realize they have far more common cause with socialists and even communists than anyone on the right.

People must be disabused of the concept of left-wing totalitarianism that emerged during the Cold War. We need to reconnect liberalism and socialism to the Enlightenment and, yes, even Romanticism. We must imagine a better future.
 
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Strange got me to thinking more about John Brown. Haven't thought about him in a while. It's relevant to this thread, because if we truly believe all we say about ourselves, John Brown would be on Mt. Rushmore. He'd have a holiday. Complicated man, but lived his values in an extremely tough time. The HBO (or whatever) miniseries with Ethan Hawke as Brown from few years ago pretty good, by the way. His speech in the church, with Tubman there, very good! I watched it during Covid/Floyd, when things seemed like maybe they could change, so I admit I was a bit riled up.

This from the Carton biography:
John Brown.jpg
What makes John Brown the quintessential American is that he didn't have to do it. We didn't have to go into either world wars. We're on our island. And I know Pearl changed it, at least for WW2. Brown didn't have to do anything he did. But he believed so strongly in our values that he did, much to the detriment of his own family.

He's an afterthought now.
 
MendotoManteo said:
Strange got me to thinking more about John Brown. Haven't thought about him in a while. It's relevant to this thread, because if we truly believe all we say about ourselves, John Brown would be on Mt. Rushmore. He'd have a holiday. Complicated man, but lived his values in an extremely tough time. The HBO (or whatever) miniseries with Ethan Hawke as Brown from few years ago pretty good, by the way. His speech in the church, with Tubman there, very good! I watched it during Covid/Floyd, when things seemed like maybe they could change, so I admit I was a bit riled up.

This from the Carton biography:
John Brown.jpg
What makes John Brown the quintessential American is that he didn't have to do it. We didn't have to go into either world wars. We're on our island. And I know Pearl changed it, at least for WW2. Brown didn't have to do anything he did. But he believed so strongly in our values that he did, much to the detriment of his own family.

He's an afterthought now.
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I have a picture of him hanging in my living room for a reason. As great an American as there ever was. A truly moral and righteous man.
 
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