American Values

You sound like John Brown. He said this country needed a "reckoning." It got it shortly after with the Civil War, which Ken Burns did such an astounding job of portraying. (Patriotic Treason: John Brown and the Soul of America, by Evan Carton, a great book.)

Obviously, that wasn't enough. And a reckoning is warranted. I believe in reckonings. But reckonings come with great cost. Almost like apocalypse.

What do you mean when you think we need a reckoning?
I take that as a compliment.

I believe that for a long time, many in our county dismissed certain practices - slavery, imperialism, Jim Crow - that were not in keeping with our moral purposes - liberty, justice, the dignity of all human kind, equality, rule of law - because we, as a nation, believed that our moral calling to spread democracy occasionally necessitated these unfortunate practices.

Now, levers of power have been seized by people who do not believe in any of our moral purposes. They in some cases believe fervently in the unfortunate practices instead. Those people are not likely to relinquish power solely because the exercise of said power is in conflict with our stated morality. And after all, we have an unfortunately long history of those practices against "others", so why shouldn't we turn them against "others" we designate, even if they're our countrymen?

Ultimately I believe that the people who have power will lose the consent of the governed (to the extent they even have they now). But they will not relinquish power, because they don't respect consent, and so there will be a reckoning to see if power is derived from the threat of force, or the consent of the governed.

And yeah. Whether I think we need it or not, I believe that is absolutely where we're headed.
 
I take that as a compliment.

I believe that for a long time, many in our county dismissed certain practices - slavery, imperialism, Jim Crow - that were not in keeping with our moral purposes - liberty, justice, the dignity of all human kind, equality, rule of law - because we, as a nation, believed that our moral calling to spread democracy occasionally necessitated these unfortunate practices.

Now, levers of power have been seized by people who do not believe in any of our moral purposes. They in some cases believe fervently in the unfortunate practices instead. Those people are not likely to relinquish power solely because the exercise of said power is in conflict with our stated morality. And after all, we have an unfortunately long history of those practices against "others", so why shouldn't we turn them against "others" we designate, even if they're our countrymen?

Ultimately I believe that the people who have power will lose the consent of the governed (to the extent they even have they now). But they will not relinquish power, because they don't respect consent, and so there will be a reckoning to see if power is derived from the threat of force, or the consent of the governed.

And yeah. Whether I think we need it or not, I believe that is absolutely where we're headed.
It is a compliment. I want to address this but I need to get an oil change. Please forgive me. I'll try to respond soon. And If I don't, you just say, "Hey, Mendo, what the hell!" Same regarding Paine. I want to respond to him too.
 
And people like you are the reason the GOP have all three branches of government. FACT.

The "Co-Exist" bumper stickers that every Subaru Outback has on them is the absolute antithesis of what this board stands for and always has.

Any dissenting opinion is viewed as "trolling," "from right wing media," "twisted out of context" and most of all.... LIES!!

The only opinions that are accepted are those that subscribe to the ONE consensus opinion on this site. Different side of the same coin.

Trump has "MAGA.."

The left has "DADA..".. interpret it how you like.... but you and the rest are no different than Trump's minions....
I think maybe you need to revisit the idea of FACT and opinion. Some issues are factual in nature. When they are, people like you are usually on the wrong side of the facts. Climate change is a fact. It is a fact that FEMA was helping everyone after Helene. It is a fact that police officers were brutally attacked on J6 by a horde of people who were trying to overturn an election. Those are not matters of opinion.

Meanwhile, the things you people say are FACTS rarely are. For instance, it is your opinion that people like Bigs are the reason that the GQP won this last election.

Until you can demonstrate a basic understanding of what should be a fourth-grade level concept, nobody is going to take you seriously. That's not because we are intolerant. It's because we are adults.

It's hilarious that you write DADA. You have no idea what that means, do you?
 
I think maybe you need to revisit the idea of FACT and opinion. Some issues are factual in nature. When they are, people like you are usually on the wrong side of the facts. Climate change is a fact. It is a fact that FEMA was helping everyone after Helene. It is a fact that police officers were brutally attacked on J6 by a horde of people who were trying to overturn an election. Those are not matters of opinion.

Meanwhile, the things you people say are FACTS rarely are. For instance, it is your opinion that people like Bigs are the reason that the GQP won this last election.

Until you can demonstrate a basic understanding of what should be a fourth-grade level concept, nobody is going to take you seriously. That's not because we are intolerant. It's because we are adults.

It's hilarious that you write DADA. You have no idea what that means, do you?
Better to just ignore that poster than respond and allow him to derail what has otherwise been a very enjoyable and thoughtful thread.
 
America isn’t special. Probably never was.

Being located between two oceans with tremendous natural resources isn’t divine or heroic.

At one time the idea of America was great, even if it was mostly a myth, but we don’t even have that now.

I derive no particular pride from being born here.
I have to disagree. The oceans and the natural resources certainly helped but America did a lot of things close to or very close to first. Much of the rest of the world has tended to follow our example.

First successful Constitution. Today we fight about what the first amendment or the second amendment or the 4th or fifth amendment mean, but just having a constitution was a really big deal. It basically meant that a monarch or some faction that happens to get a slim majority in a democracy can't just make up the rules as they go along. That didn't happen in France, Austria, much of Germany and much of Italy until 1848 and it took an awful lot of people dying to make it happen.

First universal male suffrage in a big country. Even these countries that were monarchies would have some sort of Representative government but typically limited to the rich people or the districts were set up in such a way that rich people got outsize control. You think the Senate is bad, there was a district in England with like 16 voters in it. The lord of the district invited everyone else to dinner before the election. They also happened to be his tenants. The US got universal male suffrage (as long as you were white) with Jackson and his people in the 1820s and '30s, which allowed males to vote but also really embraced the one man one vote philosophy.

The US also managed to create a relatively classless society. Relatively is the key word here. If you were poor or more realistically middle class, you had a real shot to be rich and/or have power in the government. You didn't need to be the son of a Baron or whatever to have A shot at "rising above your station." Europeans were, and to a smaller extent still are, really impressed with that.

Those were all really big deals at the time and you can see that an awful lot of the world thought it was the right way to go.
 
Strange got me to thinking more about John Brown. Haven't thought about him in a while. It's relevant to this thread, because if we truly believe all we say about ourselves, John Brown would be on Mt. Rushmore. He'd have a holiday. Complicated man, but lived his values in an extremely tough time. The HBO (or whatever) miniseries with Ethan Hawke as Brown from few years ago pretty good, by the way. His speech in the church, with Tubman there, very good! I watched it during Covid/Floyd, when things seemed like maybe they could change, so I admit I was a bit riled up.

This from the Carton biography:
John Brown.jpg
What makes John Brown the quintessential American is that he didn't have to do it. We didn't have to go into either world wars. We're on our island. And I know Pearl changed it, at least for WW2. Brown didn't have to do anything he did. But he believed so strongly in our values that he did, much to the detriment of his own family.

He's an afterthought now.
He's still a pretty controversial figure. He was a terrorist. He murdered people for a cause he believed in and had a big part of starting a war that killed a million Americans And crippled millions of others. He also played a big part in starting a war that ended slavery in America. You can compare that to the civil Rights movement with King and Marshall which was relatively peaceful or the Anti-Slavery campaigns in the UK that ended slavery earlier than the United States with no bloodshed or the slavery campaigns in a place like Brazil which were peaceful and gradual but didn't fully end slavery until 23 years after we did.
 
Long post coming. If you don't want to read a long post, then read something else.

*****
I'm an anti-patriot. By that I mean that I see no redeeming value in the idea of patriotism. This definitely relates to the subject of the thread, as hopefully I will demonstrate.

I've been an anti-patriot for a long time. When I was 9 years old, my sixth grade teacher sent me to the principal's office during the lesson on patriotism. I said, "you can't love a country. You can only love something that can love you back, like your parents." Heresy like that was frowned upon in NC public schools. True story: I was wearing a UNC shirt that day. When I was in the principal's office, the principal asked me if I loved Carolina basketball. I said I did. The principal asked whether UNC basketball loved me back. I said, Dean Smith didn't know me, but if he did, he'd love me. The principal, also a Tar Heel, was satisfied with the answer and sent me back to class. [this anecdote isn't particularly germane, but I thought people might enjoy it]

By the time I was 12, I had moved to a somewhat more sophisticated view, which was that patriotism was an excuse for evil. If America was good, then we wouldn't need to love it. We could just love its goodness. Patriotism is only necessary when the country is doing bad things, and I didn't really want to be a part of that. By then I had moved to a private high school and the folks there were a little more tolerant. I'm not sure my view made me popular, but I didn't get blowback from it.

A few years later in college, I had generalized the idea into a view that a country is defined by its people. To love America is actually to love Americans. The things that we claim to love, like the Constitution, were created by Americans, not by America. And to the extent that the constitution lays out the rules for governing the country, it was only going to be as good as those rules were implemented and enforced. The 14th Amendment of the Constitution was indeed exceptional; but the use to which it was put was pretty fucking bad for many many years.

At every stage, I received pushback from peers. Admittedly, I was precocious and even though I was skipped ahead a couple of years, I still doubt that my new peers were interested in thinking this way. But I still think there was something disconcerting to people about these ideas, because for them patriotism and American greatness had been crutches. Deep down, I think, people knew I was right and they didn't want to admit it. Slavery was bad, and I didn't want to have anything to do with that. At the same time, slavery didn't define me, or anyone living today. Hence the conclusion that America is as good as Americans, some of whom are bad and some of whom are good. Politics is the process of determining whether the good people or bad people are in charge.

[note: I am still sick and my mind muddled a little bit. Otherwise I would be mortified to use such simplistic terminology/concepts like "good people" or "bad people." ]

*****
So why do/did people think America is a great country? It's not just Americans who have thought that, by the way. People who immigrated here thought it was a great place to be. Other countries have, at times, tried to emulate the US. There is real truth, I think, to the idea that America has at times been a great nation -- when the people who would make it a wonderful force for good were in charge.

We had the great fortune of being led at the outset by a group of exceptional leaders. Yes, I know, many of them held slaves; some of the ones who didn't were rapacious capitalists (well, pre-capitalists, I guess). But they did produce a set of ideas and expectations that were radical at the time and radically good. The Declaration could have said, "we want to rule ourselves, fuck off K George" but it didn't. The constitution could have been written as an analogue to the Magna Carta, as establishing an oligarchy instead of a monarchy, but it was that only in part.

But after that burst of civic inspiration, Americans went a long time without exceptional leadership. Was America great in the 1840s? I have my doubts, and I don't think it was widely viewed that way in Europe (I'd be curious to know more about Americans' view of America during that time; my sense is that there was much less patriotism outside of parades than there is today -- which dovetails with the excuse theory). We got exceptional leadership again during the Civil War and immediately thereafter, but the politics didn't work out.

The progressive era was a time of true exceptionalism, I think, so long as we remember that nobody is perfect and countries even less so. We got a huge flowering of democracy and for the most part it was for the better.

And then finally, I think the leaders who built the rules-based order after WWII were extraordinary. Again, nobody and nothing is perfect. I'm aware of the crimes. But how many countries in history have ever been brutally attacked by a foreign power, spent four long years fighting a bloody war, and the end were like, "hey, we're going to help you rebuild"? And we helped create the Geneva Convention, and the UN, the GATT, and so on.

*****
A big part of the success of the country has come from a relative lack of conflict over distribution of wealth. Those kinds of conflicts were typically destructive. I'm not going to try to project that forward to today, nor am I going to apologize for robber barons or the like. I'm just saying that the country was able to become an economic powerhouse because we didn't waste a lot of energy fighting over who gets what share of the spoils. I know this is an oversimplification and cut me some slack as I try to condense a whole lot of history into a few paragraphs. I'm not overlooking the struggles of labor, but it was less than in Europe.

We didn't argue about that as much because we had plenty. There was a lot of wealth to go around. Part of that was ample land. Part of it was cheap labor. And part of it was unfree labor, whether formally unfree (slavery) or de facto unfree (sharecropping). Oops. When we reached the point where we decided to apply those ideals from previous generations of exceptional Americans, the wealth wasn't so plentiful after all. When we had to divide the pie to include everyone, the conflicts over dividing the pie became more acute.

But we didn't have a conceptual language of pie-division. We had universalist ideals that were never practical. AND we had simmering hatreds. There's the famous chart about wages and productivity, and how wages became uncoupled from productivity in the 1970s. This chart is often used as a critique of "neoliberalism" but I see it differently. I see it as the result of integration. Not that integration was at all bad, or that it made us poorer, or anything like that. It's that the people who never had to reckon with the problem of scarcity (relatively speaking -- again, a message board post) except during the Depression suddenly had to, and the response made the scarcity more acute. It was the era of drained pool politics.

I also think that's when the idea of "patriotism" became more front-and-center in the American consciousness. This is a speculative claim and I very easily could be wrong, but that's my impression. And it makes sense. Patriotism is a concept that we need to justify bad things. We had come out of Vietnam, which was definitely bad, and many people wanted to retain segregation in some form or another, and there were racial conflicts, and oh yeah, gender conflicts. And hence was born, 'Murcia!

*****
In some ways, MAGA is the result of not having an adequate conceptual language to deal with pie division. Every word of that slogan (OK, maybe not 'make') is not only contestable but acutely contested. And it's not meant to be inclusive. It's meant to avoid the problems that liberation created, because we otherwise don't want to talk about it.

For a very long time, the people pulling the strings cynically used the idea of patriotism and American exceptionalism to justify their domination. They found willing subjects, so to speak, in the poor and middle classes who, again, saw those ideas as ways to paper over the selfishness they felt but didn't want to disown. But soon the puppet masters lost control, much like the mafia in Batman who loosed the Joker on the world and came to regret it. And thus do we get the epistemic anarchy of MAGA: its suspicion of elites but worship of a billionaire and occasionally other billionaires. The paranoia that had always been there (cf. Richard Hofstatder) became more tangible and real with the advent of instantaneous misinformation, so that MAGAs are simultaneously scared of things that won't harm them and seemingly welcoming those that will.

And so here we are. I don't think Musk is really a part of MAGA. I think he's MAGA adjacent, and he's trying to cling to the movement for his own private ends, but he's not really a part of it. MAGA isn't really pro-billionaire (with the exception of one). I'm not really sure if it's pro-anything. It's against a lot of stuff. The wrong stuff.

Eh, this has not been my most lucid post. My head is full of congestion.
 
MOD EDIT - No need to respond/quote this poster anymore.

A substitute troll may soon follow, would be par for the course.
 
You think the Senate is bad, there was a district in England with like 16 voters in it.
That was true in many states in the US until the 1960s with the advent of one-person, one vote. See Reynolds v. Sims


 
I have to disagree. The oceans and the natural resources certainly helped but America did a lot of things close to or very close to first. Much of the rest of the world has tended to follow our example.

First successful Constitution. Today we fight about what the first amendment or the second amendment or the 4th or fifth amendment mean, but just having a constitution was a really big deal. It basically meant that a monarch or some faction that happens to get a slim majority in a democracy can't just make up the rules as they go along. That didn't happen in France, Austria, much of Germany and much of Italy until 1848 and it took an awful lot of people dying to make it happen.

First universal male suffrage in a big country. Even these countries that were monarchies would have some sort of Representative government but typically limited to the rich people or the districts were set up in such a way that rich people got outsize control. You think the Senate is bad, there was a district in England with like 16 voters in it. The lord of the district invited everyone else to dinner before the election. They also happened to be his tenants. The US got universal male suffrage (as long as you were white) with Jackson and his people in the 1820s and '30s, which allowed males to vote but also really embraced the one man one vote philosophy.

The US also managed to create a relatively classless society. Relatively is the key word here. If you were poor or more realistically middle class, you had a real shot to be rich and/or have power in the government. You didn't need to be the son of a Baron or whatever to have A shot at "rising above your station." Europeans were, and to a smaller extent still are, really impressed with that.

Those were all really big deals at the time and you can see that an awful lot of the world thought it was the right way to go.
You make some good points. But, it’s impossible for me to overlook the stealing of land, destruction of cultures, the slavery stuff, etc. to do too much cap tipping.
 
I have to disagree. The oceans and the natural resources certainly helped but America did a lot of things close to or very close to first. Much of the rest of the world has tended to follow our example.

First successful Constitution. Today we fight about what the first amendment or the second amendment or the 4th or fifth amendment mean, but just having a constitution was a really big deal. It basically meant that a monarch or some faction that happens to get a slim majority in a democracy can't just make up the rules as they go along. That didn't happen in France, Austria, much of Germany and much of Italy until 1848 and it took an awful lot of people dying to make it happen.

First universal male suffrage in a big country. Even these countries that were monarchies would have some sort of Representative government but typically limited to the rich people or the districts were set up in such a way that rich people got outsize control. You think the Senate is bad, there was a district in England with like 16 voters in it. The lord of the district invited everyone else to dinner before the election. They also happened to be his tenants. The US got universal male suffrage (as long as you were white) with Jackson and his people in the 1820s and '30s, which allowed males to vote but also really embraced the one man one vote philosophy.

The US also managed to create a relatively classless society. Relatively is the key word here. If you were poor or more realistically middle class, you had a real shot to be rich and/or have power in the government. You didn't need to be the son of a Baron or whatever to have A shot at "rising above your station." Europeans were, and to a smaller extent still are, really impressed with that.

Those were all really big deals at the time and you can see that an awful lot of the world thought it was the right way to go.
You're not wrong.

But that's my point.
 
I think America has never had a reckoning between the radical small r republican stated principles of our founding and the small c conservative, antidemocratic, imperialist practices that it enacted.

It may be time to settle that particular account.
You are missing out on a ton.

  • Jefferson’s “Yeoman Farmer” as a preserver of freedom was always a myth. The yeoman farmer wanted to buy slaves. The yeoman farmer was loyal to his local church and town, maybe.
  • “America” has been a myth since before it began.
 
There's the famous chart about wages and productivity, and how wages became uncoupled from productivity in the 1970s. This chart is often used as a critique of "neoliberalism" but I see it differently. I see it as the result of integration. Not that integration was at all bad, or that it made us poorer, or anything like that. It's that the people who never had to reckon with the problem of scarcity (relatively speaking -- again, a message board post) except during the Depression suddenly had to, and the response made the scarcity more acute. It was the era of drained pool politics.

I also think that's when the idea of "patriotism" became more front-and-center in the American consciousness. This is a speculative claim and I very easily could be wrong, but that's my impression. And it makes sense. Patriotism is a concept that we need to justify bad things. We had come out of Vietnam, which was definitely bad, and many people wanted to retain segregation in some form or another, and there were racial conflicts, and oh yeah, gender conflicts. And hence was born, 'Murcia!
You have a long post, but these 2 ideas are the most interesting to me and I'd like to respond with different ideas.

My understanding about the "decoupling" of productivity and compensation is that it's largely a result of the technology and IT revolution. In essence, where previous gains in technology had made workers marginally more productive via roughly the same type and amount of labor, technology gains starting in the 70s increased productivity in a way that began to replace the labor of workers rather than complementing it on a grand scale. And since much of the gains to productivity were created by technology largely possessed by the owners of capital, then capital ended up getting the majority of the revenue derived from these productivity gains. (Huge caveat, my understanding is largely based on briefly indirectly looking into the issue almost 20 years ago while in grad school and it's very possible I've not taken away the best understanding.) However, if I'm anywhere close to accurate, I think the impact to the mass economy and distribution of wealth in society wasn't that we suddenly introduced scarcity to the masses, it's that we accidentally(?) created a system where for the last 50 years capital (and those who can best harness it via running/owning/contributing at high levels to significant businesses) are reaping an increasingly higher percentage of productivity gains due to owning/running/managing the technology making those gains possible.

In terms of when patriotism became more front-and-center in America's consciousness, I would say it's largely a creation of WW1 and, especially, WW2. I would say that before WW1, a lot of Americans thought of themselves as more identified with their state and greater region than the entire US. It's really clear that this is true up to the Civil War and through Reconstruction. But even after that, the South was clearly caught up in Lost Cause mythology and bitterness toward the main of the US (read: the North) regarding the Civil War. The North was still the center of the political and economic leadership of the nation. The Midwest had emerged as a region focused on egalitarianism and manufacturing due to vast natural resources (and influenced by the migration of African Americans after the Civil War). And the West of the US was being increasingly occupied by folks moving in and being recognized as states of the greater US. And because how things were going were very dependent on where in the US you live (or moved to), states and regions were more important within the minds of the average American.

I think this changed drastically during WW1 and (especially) WW2 and for the first time Americans began to think of themselves as Americans first and foremost over citizens of their state or region. IIRC, ~25% of draft-eligible men served in each war (~10% of the entire US population) and both wars were really the first (and second) time since the US Revolutionary War (when the nation was much, much smaller) that the entire US mobilized on a grand-scale against an external actor. And given how many folks served either in the military during these wars or was part of the greater war efforts, the was a lot of pride among folks at a lot of levels of society over 2 generations about the US's contribution to the victories in WW1 & (especially) WW2. Out of that pride from these wars was generated a significant increase in patriotism regarding the US. Where that patriotism first became toxic was in the late 60s and onward when internal social strife in the US led to some folks seeing themselves as "real Americans" against those who were pushing for change and "patriotism" was used as a weapon in a "love it or leave it" way against progressives. (Although there are certainly hints of this in the direct post-WW1 and post-WW2 Red Scares, again especially after WW2 with McCarthyism.) This is where US patriotism really dovetails into the view you are suggesting, that it morphs (at least for a significant minority) into social-based internally-focused jingoism and becomes used as a cover for "evil".
 
You have a long post, but these 2 ideas are the most interesting to me and I'd like to respond with different ideas.

My understanding about the "decoupling" of productivity and compensation is that it's largely a result of the technology and IT revolution. In essence, where previous gains in technology had made workers marginally more productive via roughly the same type and amount of labor, technology gains starting in the 70s increased productivity in a way that began to replace the labor of workers rather than complementing it on a grand scale. And since much of the gains to productivity were created by technology largely possessed by the owners of capital, then capital ended up getting the majority of the revenue derived from these productivity gains. (Huge caveat, my understanding is largely based on briefly indirectly looking into the issue almost 20 years ago while in grad school and it's very possible I've not taken away the best understanding.) However, if I'm anywhere close to accurate, I think the impact to the mass economy and distribution of wealth in society wasn't that we suddenly introduced scarcity to the masses, it's that we accidentally(?) created a system where for the last 50 years capital (and those who can best harness it via running/owning/contributing at high levels to significant businesses) are reaping an increasingly higher percentage of productivity gains due to owning/running/managing the technology making those gains possible.

In terms of when patriotism became more front-and-center in America's consciousness, I would say it's largely a creation of WW1 and, especially, WW2. I would say that before WW1, a lot of Americans thought of themselves as more identified with their state and greater region than the entire US. It's really clear that this is true up to the Civil War and through Reconstruction. But even after that, the South was clearly caught up in Lost Cause mythology and bitterness toward the main of the US (read: the North) regarding the Civil War. The North was still the center of the political and economic leadership of the nation. The Midwest had emerged as a region focused on egalitarianism and manufacturing due to vast natural resources (and influenced by the migration of African Americans after the Civil War). And the West of the US was being increasingly occupied by folks moving in and being recognized as states of the greater US. And because how things were going were very dependent on where in the US you live (or moved to), states and regions were more important within the minds of the average American.

I think this changed drastically during WW1 and (especially) WW2 and for the first time Americans began to think of themselves as Americans first and foremost over citizens of their state or region. IIRC, ~25% of draft-eligible men served in each war (~10% of the entire US population) and both wars were really the first (and second) time since the US Revolutionary War (when the nation was much, much smaller) that the entire US mobilized on a grand-scale against an external actor. And given how many folks served either in the military during these wars or was part of the greater war efforts, the was a lot of pride among folks at a lot of levels of society over 2 generations about the US's contribution to the victories in WW1 & (especially) WW2. Out of that pride from these wars was generated a significant increase in patriotism regarding the US. Where that patriotism first became toxic was in the late 60s and onward when internal social strife in the US led to some folks seeing themselves as "real Americans" against those who were pushing for change and "patriotism" was used as a weapon in a "love it or leave it" way against progressives. (Although there are certainly hints of this in the direct post-WW1 and post-WW2 Red Scares, again especially after WW2 with McCarthyism.) This is where US patriotism really dovetails into the view you are suggesting, that it morphs (at least for a significant minority) into social-based internally-focused jingoism and becomes used as a cover for "evil".
I won't disagree with your more complete account on the history of patriotism (though we can both agree that it is still incredibly incomplete, given that there are probably monographs on the topic, but this is good work for message board purposes). As you say, I think we end up at the same place. Your explanation is better.

As for the decoupling of wages and productivity, I don't think your account works. For one thing, increased productivity has often driven laborers out of jobs. It was technology that caused black people to migrate north, as their labor was not as necessary in a world with gasoline powered farm equipment. Second, I don't think the timeline quite works. And third, the story works if the technology makes labor fungible, or at least retains fungibility. But usually technology in industrial settings doesn't work that way. Usually technology creates a higher skill level for workers that leads to higher pay for those who can operate it.

There are a ton of reasons to explain the chart. I didn't mean to imply a monocausality, only that I think the divisions following mandatory integration played more of a role than people typically realize. And that's an "I think" and not a strong one at that. It's a consideration worth chewing over, in my view.
 
O Sleepless as the river under thee,
Vaulting the sea, the prairies’ dreaming sod,
Unto us lowliest sometime sweep, descend
And of the curveship lend a myth to God.
 
He's still a pretty controversial figure. He was a terrorist. He murdered people for a cause he believed in and had a big part of starting a war that killed a million Americans And crippled millions of others. He also played a big part in starting a war that ended slavery in America. You can compare that to the civil Rights movement with King and Marshall which was relatively peaceful or the Anti-Slavery campaigns in the UK that ended slavery earlier than the United States with no bloodshed or the slavery campaigns in a place like Brazil which were peaceful and gradual but didn't fully end slavery until 23 years after we did.
You're falling for the "richies" propaganda. Yes, he murdered people. Slave holders.

If, however, we truly believe in the values professed by our founding, he should be considered no different than Washington.

Don't be a patsy. If you think being a slaveholder means you shouldn't be murdered, alright. But, as far as I see it, once you cross that bridge you have decided you should determine another's life.

And John Brown then determined their lives, in turn.
 
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