Andrew Sullivan: The Permanent Stain

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breepf said:
I think you're overestimating Buckley and the National Review. For all his claims about cleaning up postwar conservatism, he had a long correspondence with George Lincoln Rockwell, one of the founders of the American neo-Nazi movement. And his so-called elegance is overrated. Just because he went to Yale doesn't mean he wasn't a piece of shit. Check out his 1957 NR editorial "Why the South Must Prevail" or his 1986 NYT editorial about AIDS, which concludes as follows:

Everyone detected with AIDS should be tatooed in the upper forearm, to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks, to prevent the victimization of other homosexuals.

You have got to be kidding! That's exactly what we suspected all along! You are calling for the return of the Scarlet Letter, but only for homosexuals!

Answer: The Scarlet Letter was designed to stimulate public obloquy. The AIDS tattoo is designed for private protection. And the whole point of this is that we are not talking about a kidding matter. Our society is generally threatened, and in order to fight AIDS, we need the civil equivalent of universal military training.

I'm sure Sam Tanenhaus covers all this in his recent biography of Buckley.
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Buckley was a Burkian, but also an elitist and prone to deep sarcasm. He was occasionally susceptible to bigotry, which he later regretted.

Ironically, the point of the NYT AIDS article is correct in that during a pandemic without a cure or even a treatment, identifying those infected is crucial, including those giving blood, or drug users... the point of the article was that the military was performing massive AIDS testing, because many may become blood donors....and was being advocated INSTEAD of marking with a scarlet letter.

Iconically, like COVID the key was testing....and developing a vaccine or effective treatment. AIDS research was critical in the development of the mRNA vaccine for COVID. We know "traditional" vaccine strategies (live or dead virus) vaccines do not work, because the nation of China tried it and were forced into massive shutdowns in 2022 and 2023.
 
Duke Mu said:
Buckley was a Burkian, but also an elitist and prone to deep sarcasm. He was occasionally susceptible to bigotry, which he later regretted.

Ironically, the point of the NYT AIDS article is correct in that during a pandemic without a cure or even a treatment, identifying those infected is crucial, including those giving blood, or drug users... the point of the article was that the military was performing massive AIDS testing, because many may become blood donors....and was being advocated INSTEAD of marking with a scarlet letter.

Iconically, like COVID the key was testing....and developing a vaccine or effective treatment. AIDS research was critical in the development of the mRNA vaccine for COVID. We know "traditional" vaccine strategies (live or dead virus) vaccines do not work, because the nation of China tried it and were forced into massive shutdowns in 2022 and 2023.
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The guy wrote an NR editorial calling for the use of tactical nukes on Vietnam. He's a fucking monster and should be remembered as such.
 
breepf said:
The guy wrote an NR editorial calling for the use of tactical nukes on Vietnam. He's a fucking monster and should be remembered as such.
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Nixon bombing the **** out of Cambodia worked out so much better...or the smell of napalm in the morning.

Not a high point in the column line, though.
 
Duke Mu said:
I mean...oops. We can cherry pick out head scratchers for any columnist.

andrewsullivan.substack.com

The Woke: On The Wrong Side Of History

We need a racial politics for 2119, not 1619. Latinos will lead the way.
andrewsullivan.substack.com andrewsullivan.substack.com
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I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to champion Sullivan. Ultimately, I just don't see the purpose in pretending that "elegant" conservatives like Buckley or "folksy" ones like GWB weren't--at best--pieces of shit.
 
lawtig02 said:
Hard to trust them, but also very hard to see a path out of this without them. I suspect Ram and calla see themselves as Burkian conservatives. Or at least they did ten years ago.
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They may think that but if they have ever read Burke then they forgot what he said.
 
breepf said:
I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to champion Sullivan. Ultimately, I just don't see the purpose in pretending that "elegant" conservatives like Buckley or "folksy" ones like GWB weren't--at best--pieces of shit.
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We’re unfortunately at a moment where we need at least some of the normal pieces of shit to help us prevent the existential pieces of shit from destroying everything.

And I say that rhetorically. I don’t think all conservatives are pieces of shit. In fact, if you don’t include MAGA in the universe of conservatives, since they’re really not, I don’t think most conservatives are pieces of shit.
 
Look y'all...I'm not championing Sullivan OR Burke. They're all on the wrong side of humanity as conservatives. Burke was at least somewhat coherent, albeit, elitist, selfish, hypocritical, and often inhuman, but those are the things that make him a conservative after all.
 
SnoopRob said:
I agree we need them and the stakes, but I’m terribly pessimistic that they’re going to do their part.
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Will MAGAts even listen to the Andrew Sullivans, George Wills, etc.?

They’ve already excoriated and excommunicated the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers.

The Lincoln Party, The Bulwark, and similar center-right entities carry little-to-no sway among Republicans.
 
lawtig02 said:
I’m not saying any of it is new. But this articulation of it is especially compelling, in my view. And as many flaws as he might have, it’s really important to see things like this from unquestionable conservatives like Sullivan. It’s why I’m curious to see if any of the “conservatives” here will take it on. I’m not at all surprised they haven’t yet.
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Do you seriously think they read things that are that long? Or even know or give a shit who this guy is?
 
Hey Andrew,

Where you been, bro ? Better late than never

Come on in and join the party with the rest of Americans who have been concerned about losing our democracy since election night back in November.
 
heelinhell said:
Hey Andrew,

Where you been, bro ? Better late than never

Come on in and join the party with the rest of Americans who have been concerned about losing our democracy since election night back in November.
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Sullivan has always been a never Trumper. Yes, a conservative one who still has some stupid conservative ideas, but he has never backed Trump (at least as far as I can remember).
 
This part echoes what I have been saying for a while now:

This very Greek tragedy — conservatives killing the Constitution they love because they hate the left more — is made more poignant by Trump’s utter cluelessness: he doesn’t even intend to end the American experiment in self-government and individual freedom. He isn’t that sophisticated. He is ending it simply because he knows no other way of being a human being. He cannot tolerate any system where he does not have total control. Character counts, as conservatives once insisted, and a man with Trump’s psyche, when combined with his demagogic genius, is quite simply incompatible with liberal democratic society. Unfit.

This paragraph is why "Trump = Hitler" comparisons fall flat. Trump isn't trying to be a tyrant. He isn't an ideologue; he barely has any personally ideology beyond "I should get to do whatever I want." He just is a tyrant largely by accident because he's too stupid to understand that the way he lives his life is tyranny personified. In his own mind he's, like, Teddy fucking Roosevelt or something. He truly doesn't understand why more Americans don't worship him as our greatest President ever.

Also, it's always good to have a reminder that this is, of course, Andrew Sullivan, in the form of the line "conservatives killing the Constitution they love because they hate the left more." Gee, Andrew, it's almost like most "conservatives" never loved the Constitution at all, it was just a convenient vehicle for them to articulate a legal justification for being opposed to progressive reform. Who woulda thunk it?
 
heelinhell said:
Hey Andrew,

Where you been, bro ? Better late than never

Come on in and join the party with the rest of Americans who have been concerned about losing our democracy since election night back in November.
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Or even since Dear Leader's first election in 2016. The signs have been there ever since Trump descended the escalator, called Mexican immigrants rapists, and announced his candidacy in 2015. All of these Johnny-come-lately types are way, way behind the curve, and while it's nice they are finally beginning to come around, it's really too little, too late.
 
rodoheel said:
Sullivan has always been a never Trumper. Yes, a conservative one who still has some stupid conservative ideas, but he has never backed Trump (at least as far as I can remember).
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agreed

I have never considered Andrew a Trumper but back in the day I considered him a loyal Log Cabin Republican.

I confess that I have not followed Andrew's takes on politics for a few years. Was he excoriating Trump and issuing a clarion call before this latest article ?
 
heelinhell said:
agreed

I have never considered Andrew a Trumper but back in the day I considered him a loyal Log Cabin Republican.

I confess that I have not followed Andrew's takes on politics for a few years. Was he excoriating Trump and issuing a clarion call before this latest article ?
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Oh yes.

Here is his endorsement of Kamala Harris:

andrewsullivan.substack.com

Harris For President

An anguished but emphatic endorsement.
andrewsullivan.substack.com andrewsullivan.substack.com
 
heelinhell said:
agreed

I have never considered Andrew a Trumper but back in the day I considered him a loyal Log Cabin Republican.

I confess that I have not followed Andrew's takes on politics for a few years. Was he excoriating Trump and issuing a clarion call before this latest article ?
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He has been excoriating Trump for about 10 years now.

This is an interview with Sullivan from May 2016:
slate.com

Andrew Sullivan: Trump Could Win

In New York magazine’s May 2 cover story, Andrew Sullivan writes that “when a democracy has ripened” to a maximally free state, as described by Plato,...
slate.com slate.com
 
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