Anyone ever worked as a bouncer or know about bouncing?

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superrific

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I was reading a court case today -- I'll get to the substance later -- in which the conservative judge argued that "the power to exclude implies a power to expel." This is of course not established by logic, so the judge offered an analogy to explain:

Take a hypothetical. Imagine you are serving as a bouncer for a Christmas gala. In that role, you are to exclude anyone you think poses a danger to any of the guests. The day of the
event comes, and you are stationed at the entrance. A nefarious-looking gentleman approaches and begins inquiring into the whereabouts of one of the guests. You grow suspicious.
You determine the gentleman may pose a danger. So you deny him entry. A few moments later, you spot the gentleman advancing a couple steps into the venue, apparently attempting to
sneak up behind the very man whose whereabouts he had inquired about. What to do? Must you stand on the sidelines and watch, simply because you only have authority to deny entry?
Of course not. The authority to deny entry naturally brings with it some authority to remove.

I would argue that actually bouncers are not given the free floating power to remove patrons from the establishment without explicit permission. That most bar owners recognize that keeping people out is not the same thing as forcing them out. That's true for a lot of reasons, right?

I mean, law shouldn't turn on the conventions used by bars, but the judge offered that as analogy to defend his position. If the analogy fails on its face, that tends to suggest that his position is entirely made-up and illogical, born of prejudice and not rationality. Also, he said he chose this example because it was the subject of a debate between Kant and some other guy. LOL.

What do people think?
 
superrific said:
I was reading a court case today -- I'll get to the substance later -- in which the conservative judge argued that "the power to exclude implies a power to expel." This is of course not established by logic, so the judge offered an analogy to explain:

Take a hypothetical. Imagine you are serving as a bouncer for a Christmas gala. In that role, you are to exclude anyone you think poses a danger to any of the guests. The day of the
event comes, and you are stationed at the entrance. A nefarious-looking gentleman approaches and begins inquiring into the whereabouts of one of the guests. You grow suspicious.
You determine the gentleman may pose a danger. So you deny him entry. A few moments later, you spot the gentleman advancing a couple steps into the venue, apparently attempting to
sneak up behind the very man whose whereabouts he had inquired about. What to do? Must you stand on the sidelines and watch, simply because you only have authority to deny entry?
Of course not. The authority to deny entry naturally brings with it some authority to remove.

I would argue that actually bouncers are not given the free floating power to remove patrons from the establishment without explicit permission. That most bar owners recognize that keeping people out is not the same thing as forcing them out. That's true for a lot of reasons, right?

I mean, law shouldn't turn on the conventions used by bars, but the judge offered that as analogy to defend his position. If the analogy fails on its face, that tends to suggest that his position is entirely made-up and illogical, born of prejudice and not rationality. Also, he said he chose this example because it was the subject of a debate between Kant and some other guy. LOL.

What do people think?
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You may be asking about something that falls within a different or perhaps much more general context, but I have represented quite a few people as criminal defendants who were removed from bars and clubs by bouncers. So at least with regard to that part of the question, removing people from the venue when they cross certain lines is part of a bouncer’s job description.
 
Icky Mettle said:
You may be asking about something that falls within a different or perhaps much more general context, but I have represented quite a few people as criminal defendants who were removed from bars and clubs by bouncers. So at least with regard to that part of the question, removing people from the venue when they cross certain lines is part of a bouncer’s job description.
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I know bouncers can remove people. But only when instructed, right? For your defendants, did the bouncer just walk into the bar and throw them out without permission? Or had they started a fight that the bouncer was supposed to break up?

I just have trouble believing that a bar owner, having told a guy to stand outside and police entry, would also be fine with the bouncer heading back into the bar to throw people out just because they weren't supposed to be there. That seems like an invitation to starting lots of bar fights.
 
superrific said:
I know bouncers can remove people. But only when instructed, right? For your defendants, did the bouncer just walk into the bar and throw them out without permission? Or had they started a fight that the bouncer was supposed to break up?

I just have trouble believing that a bar owner, having told a guy to stand outside and police entry, would also be fine with the bouncer heading back into the bar to throw people out just because they weren't supposed to be there. That seems like an invitation to starting lots of bar fights.
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No, they never seek permission from a bar owner or manager (they often have to react fast). I am sure that when they started working for the establishment they were instructed, or in some cases perhaps just have an understanding, that part of the job is to remove patrons who are being disruptive, who are threatening or harassing other patrons or employees, who become overly intoxicated, who are doing something illegal, or who are otherwise violating rules of the establishment.
 
In practice, bouncers absolutely have the power to expel. They don’t need an owner or manager or bartender to instruct them to expel.

In fact, if a bouncer waits for instruction like that, he’s not going his job very well. He’s supposed to be identifying and anticipating problems in a way that lightens the load of the other bar staff.
 
Reminds me of Ron White’s story of getting physically thrown out of a bar. He said he squared off with bar’s bouncers in the parking lot. He backed down because he didn’t know how many of them it was going to take to whip his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.
 
Here’s Miriam-Webster’s definition of bouncer: “one employed to restrain or eject disorderly persons”

Here’s Cambridge’s: “someone whose job is to stand outside a bar, party, etc. and either stop peoplewho cause trouble from coming in or force them to leave”

Britannica’s: “a person whose job is to force anyone who causes a problem in a bar, nightclub, etc., to leave that place”
 
Thanks to all. I guess I was wrong about the analogy being self-defeating. I thought that "advancing a couple of steps into the bar" was basically an attempt to collapse a legit distinction. And it seems that in the bouncer example, that might be wrong.

As a legal principle, it's obviously false. The power to exclude does not always or even usually imply the power to expel. For instance, a landlord doesn't have to let you onto the premises, let alone rent to you. He can exclude you. But, if he leases to you, he cannot expel you with the same authority. It is a much harder process.

This was also true at common law. A field can be fenced and the fence is even allowed to be dangerous (though tort law more recently has something to say about that). You can keep people or animals out. However, if they do come onto your property, it doesn't give you the right to forcibly expel them, say, with a shotgun. To the extent that is permitted, it's only under the castle doctrine and that is specific to a particular set of circumstances.

Judge Walker is a fool.
 
Never been a bouncer but I've thrown many people out of bars and on occasion stopped then as they entered and turned them around and out. I did that sort of thing for a great many different reasons as well.

When I worked at Tijuana Fats tending bar there was a telephone network between us, The Cave, Pyewacket, and eventually Local 506. When we threw someone out as quickly as possible we called The Cave with a description, who then called Pyewacket. Those people were stopped at the door at the next place down the line and denied entry.

We did the same thing with ALE agents or people suspected of being with ALE.
 
Patb78 said:
Reminds me of Ron White’s story of getting physically thrown out of a bar. He said he squared off with bar’s bouncers in the parking lot. He backed down because he didn’t know how many of them it was going to take to whip his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.
Click to expand...
One of my favorite lines from that bit, went something like, "He picked me up and threw me like a Frisbee."
 
I've never been a bouncer, but I've met a few that felt they had the authority to remove me from the bar.
 
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