Are we moving on to dangerous (political) terrain?

[grubar]

One of the things I learned reading ZZLP is that MAGA folks are insane and believe crazy things, AND they are unable to determine when people, or web sites, are lying to them

So, these days we have lots of data points suggesting that Trump is in trouble: Harris is raising tons of money and drawing crowds; Walz seems like a fine choice; Vance is a tool and he is getting terrible press; polls seems to be confirming this shift.

Meanwhile, Trump (and Vance) and their closest supporters have demonstrated that they have no problem with lying to voters. And we know that the base will believe lies.

So, for instance, I read on "Twitter" [yeah, i know]that Harris and Walz are communists who will make the US communists. Of course those are lies, but - like the Maga folks on IC - their base is full of stupid people. And, meanwhile,Trump is desperate for all sorts if reasons.

What happens when a POTUS candidate becomes increasingly clear that he is going to lose, when he cares NOTHING about honesty or the US,and his VP candidate has the same distaste for truth, and their base followers are just really stupid?

I worry

 

[SmilingJack]

They are weird and only have the power we acquiesce to them. The old adage is:

"Fear knocked on the door. Courage answered and no one was there!"

 

[CarolinaFever]

I have wondered if a MAGA would try to do something to Harris, especially with the momentum she has now.

 

[Rock]

I have wondered if a MAGA would try to do something to Harris, especially with the momentum she has now.

The attempt on Trump's life has assuredly made the Secret Service/LEO types on about as high alert as you can get so that's a silver lining of that whole thing.

I do worry there will be violence. Thousands if not tens of thousands or more will believe the election was stolen if Trump loses. That's enough that one or a dozen wingnuts will do something stupid around the country. Hopefully Harris wins by such a large margin that it'll defuse a lot of that nonsense.

 

[Croatoan]

What happens when a POTUS candidate becomes increasingly clear that he is going to lose, when he cares NOTHING about honesty or the US,and his VP candidate has the same distaste for truth, and their base followers are just really stupid?

Recent events have led me to believe the only clear answer to this question is to get a group of party “elites” together to stab the original Presidential candidate in the back and then just replace them with a re-packaged VP.

 

[Sandinista]

Recent events have led me to believe the only clear answer to this question is to get a group of party “elites” together to stab the original Presidential candidate in the back and then just replace them with a re-packaged VP.

Sorry Grubby, but you set yourself up to get burned with the lazy way you laid out everything and you just done got burned by it.

Don't blame this poster for burning you--blame yourself for leaving the door wide open.

Do better. Be smarter. The election is fewer than 90 days away. If you can't talk about it without offering easy layups like this to the opposition, then it's better for all if you just keep your mouth shut and don't talk about it.

 

[Croatoan]

Sorry Grubby, but you set yourself up to get burned with the lazy way you laid out everything and you just done got burned by it.

Don't blame this poster for burning you--blame yourself for leaving the door wide open.

Do better. Be smarter. The election is fewer than 90 days away. If you can't talk about it without offering easy layups like this to the opposition, then it's better for all if you just keep your mouth shut and don't talk about it.

Good morning, Sandi. Big fan of some of your earlier work on these boards. Have to say that your poast concerns me, just probably not in the way it seems you intended. See, I’ve been around long enough to remember the “old” Sandi. That Sandi would do the burning, often with creativity and verve. This? With the cut-n-paste last paragraph? Talk about “do better”. No hate though. Like I said, I’ve really enjoyed your poasting over the years. Hope you’re healthy and doing well.

 

[Sandinista]

Good morning, Sandi. Big fan of some of your earlier work on these boards. Have to say that your poast concerns me, just probably not in the way it seems you intended. See, I’ve been around long enough to remember the “old” Sandi. That Sandi would do the burning, often with creativity and verve. This? With the cut-n-paste last paragraph? Talk about “do better”. No hate though. Like I said, I’ve really enjoyed your poasting over the years. Hope you’re healthy and doing well.

That post wasn't to you, it was to grumbles.

You can tell by how I addressed him by name in the first sentence, which was at the beginning of the post.

I was admonishing him for such a lazily-written thread post that left itself open to slightly less lazy attacks like yours.

If he wants to be an asset to progressive ideals in this election, he seriously needs to reevaluate how much time he spends composing his posts, or else consider not posting at all.

There's no excuse for someone walking into the sledgehammer you just gave him. It's pathetic to walk into that, and it's easily avoidable.

None of this has anything to do with you. Your response to him was merely the one that proved it was time for someone to tell him he must change how he's helping this election.

 

[Croatoan]

That post wasn't to you, it was to grumbles.

You can tell by how I addressed him by name in the first sentence, which was at the beginning of the post.

I was admonishing him for such a lazily-written thread post that left itself open to slightly less lazy attacks like yours.

If he wants to be an asset to progressive ideals in this election, he seriously needs to reevaluate how much time he spends composing his posts, or else consider not posting at all.

There's no excuse for someone walking into the sledgehammer you just gave him. It's pathetic to walk into that, and it's easily avoidable.

None of this has anything to do with you. Your response to him was merely the one that proved it was time for someone to tell him he must change how he's helping this election.

Got it. Appreciate the clarification and hope you get where the misunderstanding might have happened on my part. I do appreciate you as a long-time poaster, was disappointed with your response (given my misunderstanding of the addressee), and (as I tend to be) was a bit snarky in my response. My apologies.

Btw, your third paragraph in this last poast is gold. “Slightly less lazy attacks than yours” is a dig I can appreciate. That’s what I remember, Sandi. Thanks.

 

[grubar]

Sorry Grubby, but you set yourself up to get burned with the lazy way you laid out everything and you just done got burned by it.mbm

Don't blame this poster for burning you--blame yourself for leaving the door wide open.

Do better. Be smarter. The election is fewer than 90 days away. If you can't talk about it without offering easy layups like this to the opposition, then it's better for all if you just keep your mouth shut and don't talk about it.

I'm sorry, but your response is -in my view -completely wrong and wrong-headed.

To reiterate the facts from the OP (with some expansion):
(1) DJT is pretty clearly the most dishonest person to EVER run for POTUS, and certainly to win the job. The guy lies.
(2) DJT's MAGA followers have proven persistently willing to believe things that simply are untrue. The list of examples is long and growing, and I am not wasting my time repeating them,
(3) The members of the GOP -professionals and office holders - who have not walked away from DJT have proven willing to lie over and over again. [Vance, Greene, Miller, Cotton, Jordan, Gaetz, Boebert etc]
(4) There is a growing list of events and facts which suggest that DJT's electoral future looks increasingly poor.
(5) It surely seems that Trump's clear mental disabilities are getting worse.
So, I wrote that it looks like a perfect storm brewing, where Trump will lie more and more and the MAGA folks will believe him

In the last few days:
* Trump's "press conference" was just an unending string of lies and jeremiads
* The recent dishonest attacks on Walz, from folks like Vance etc, suggest the same sort of rising hysteria,

In a universe where an entire political party has no commitment to truth, things grow dangerous.

[Sandinista: I have no interest in engaging with you, For obvious reasons.]

 

[KishiKaisei]

One of the things I learned reading ZZLP is that MAGA folks are insane and believe crazy things, AND they are unable to determine when people, or web sites, are lying to them

So, these days we have lots of data points suggesting that Trump is in trouble: Harris is raising tons of money and drawing crowds; Walz seems like a fine choice; Vance is a tool and he is getting terrible press; polls seems to be confirming this shift.

Meanwhile, Trump (and Vance) and their closest supporters have demonstrated that they have no problem with lying to voters. And we know that the base will believe lies.

So, for instance, I read on "Twitter" [yeah, i know]that Harris and Walz are communists who will make the US communists. Of course those are lies, but - like the Maga folks on IC - their base is full of stupid people. And, meanwhile,Trump is desperate for all sorts if reasons.

What happens when a POTUS candidate becomes increasingly clear that he is going to lose, when he cares NOTHING about honesty or the US,and his VP candidate has the same distaste for truth, and their base followers are just really stupid?

I worry

 

[sringwal]

Exactly. Grubar’s original post reads like hand wringing for the sake of hand wringing. MAGA is going to MAGA no matter what the outcome is. Win by a little, or win by a lot, their behavior will be the same. But, I would also argue that they shot their shot, and failed, on January 6th. As whacky as the last month and a half has been, they have been relatively quiet. They are bluster to the nth degree. And I’m tired of the left tiptoeing around for fear of how MAGA might respond. It is high time that the movement is driven into the ground, and then cemented six feet under.

 

[Centerpiece]

Recent events have led me to believe the only clear answer to this question is to get a group of party “elites” together to stab the original Presidential candidate in the back and then just replace them with a re-packaged VP.

I wish you would do it to trump.

 

[Centerpiece]

Exactly. Grubar’s original post reads like hand wringing for the sake of hand wringing. MAGA is going to MAGA no matter what the outcome is. Win by a little, or win by a lot, their behavior will be the same. But, I would also argue that they shot their shot, and failed, on January 6th. As whacky as the last month and a half has been, they have been relatively quiet. They are bluster to the nth degree. And I’m tired of the left tiptoeing around for fear of how MAGA might respond. It is high time that the movement is driven into the ground, and then cemented six feet under.

Agree. One way is to ignore

 

[SmilingJack]

Honesty and truth are not effing dangerous nor scary. GTFO with this crap.

 

[Croatoan]

It is high time that the movement is driven into the ground, and then cemented six feet under.

I’d be interested in reading your recommendations on how, exactly, “the left” should go about doing this.

 

[WaynetheDrain]

I’d be interested in reading your recommendations on how, exactly, “the left” should go about doing this.

We can't do it without the GOP having their own "Come to Jesus" moment.

Here's what we can do: Beat them. Every time. Continue to put up good candidates and continue to beat them at the ballot box when Trump or a Trump surrogate is a candidate. Eventually, the hope is that the GOP will get tired of being on the losing end of all these battles and realize that Trump isn't the guy. Force them to come to terms with the fact they need to change directions, or risk more years of Democrat control of the White House and Congress.

This process will not happen overnight, unfortunately. Because the people whose minds need to be changed are the voters, and there are still too many MAGA hardcores that form a coalition too strong for the "normal" Republicans to break yet. It's not enough to win a general election vs. a competent Democrat, but it is enough to hold the GOP hostage during primary season.

If I had to guess, I think Trump will be dead and buried before Trump voters see the light and begin regaining their sanity.

Until then, keep winning.

 

[sringwal]

I’d be interested in reading your recommendations on how, exactly, “the left” should go about doing this.

1) By not hand wringing like Grubar was doing. 2) By not running a victory lap before all votes are counted. 3) By voting in record numbers and not sitting this one out/voting third party in protest. 4) By building past its base. It is not just the left that needs to do it. It’s got to be a coalition of the left, fiscal republicans, and independents. We all benefit from moving past Trump because his anti-intellectual, mud throwing, paranoia fueled behavior represents the worst of America and we can do better.

 

[sringwal]

We can't do it without the GOP having their own "Come to Jesus" moment.

Here's what we can do: Beat them. Every time. Continue to put up good candidates and continue to beat them at the ballot box when Trump or a Trump surrogate is a candidate. Eventually, the hope is that the GOP will get tired of being on the losing end of all these battles and realize that Trump isn't the guy. Force them to come to terms with the fact they need to change directions, or risk more years of Democrat control of the White House and Congress.

This process will not happen overnight, unfortunately. Because the people whose minds need to be changed are the voters, and there are still too many MAGA hardcores that form a coalition too strong for the "normal" Republicans to break yet. It's not enough to win a general election vs. a competent Democrat, but it is enough to hold the GOP hostage during primary season.

If I had to guess, I think Trump will be dead and buried before Trump voters see the light and begin regaining their sanity.

Until then, keep winning.

Pretty much all of this.

 

[grubar]

1) By not hand wringing like Grubar was doing. 2) By not running a victory lap before all votes are counted. 3) By voting in record numbers and not sitting this one out/voting third party in protest. 4) By building past its base. It is not just the left that needs to do it. It’s got to be a coalition of the left, fiscal republicans, and independents. We all benefit from moving past Trump because his anti-intellectual, mud throwing, paranoia fueled behavior represents the worst of America and we can do better.

Well, I don't know that I am "hand wringing." For a very long time I have been really appalled by several things:
** DJT just lies constantly
** DJT's followers seem to believe the lies
** The GOP leadership pretty much must embrace the lies or be written out of the club

I imagine that the Dem convention and the debates will help the Democratic chances. That is a good thing,. But, in the meantime, Trump grows increasingly insane and the news media seems - once again - to be unwilling to point out that he is lying (and insane)
SO, if the gap widens it seems reasonable that Trump will lie more, while stressing the dire consequences if Harris wins.

So, yeah, it bothers me to imagine a world where folks like the MAGA crew in ZZLP embraces worse lies. I do not fear Civil War, but these people ARE insane