Ask the ZZL: HVAC

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Igs149

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Curious if folks have advice / strong feelings on HVAC units and cost. Live in Charlotte and replacing my furnace and AC in the attic. AC services our upstairs (ballpark at 1000ish sq ft) and furnace will service the whole house … 3500+ sq ft. Double high living room eats the upstairs a bit and makes the far bedroom (across the walkway) harder to cool.

Looking at:

Trane unit:
AC: 14 or 16 SEER AC, single stage;
Furnace: 60k BTU single stage/ 80% AFUE

Rheem
AC: 16K SEER
Furnace: 75k BTU single or two stage; 80% AFUE

Got quotes from $10-13.5k all-in.

This probably isn’t the forever home so would not go super high end. But with mortgage rates high, will likely be here at least 5 years so want something quality without busting the bank. I also strongly suspect my AC unit downstairs will likely go soon (given the one upstairs has) so definitely interested in making the right decision re quality.

Anyone an HVAC aficionado?
 
I'd do some research online and it's definitely worth a consumer report subscription if they have done some evals.

I think most of the big brands have a generic option. Ideally it would be the exact same as the Trane or Rheem without the marketing costs baked in. That's what my HVAC guy told me last time we needed to get something new but who knows.
 
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These effin guys. That’s about $4k of equipment and a days work. I used to get units for my rentals $3500 (1500 sq ft) all in, now $7k. If my son doesn’t show more of an aptitude for science and math, he’s going straight to HVAC school. I’ll stake his business. $$ROI$$
 
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Did they do actual manual J and Maunal S calcs? No reason that one is suggesting 60KBtu's and the other 75. It will cost more, but I would suggest getting someone (3rd party) to do the calcs for the system. Very few HVAC guys really know how to properly size a system.
Two-stage/ variable speed is the only way to go. I would default to a higher SEER as well. Can you zone the upstairs and downstairs? Depending on how it is ducted you might be able to easily add a zone damper to split the system.
 
Apologies for additional questions - Are you looking at (2) different systems? One for A/C and one for heating? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you get a furnace with a cooling coil? Maybe that is what is being suggested.
 
We replaced our HVAC earlier this year. Can’t remember the exact model but it was a Trane.

Honestly I feel like finding a competent installation specialist that you can trust is the most important part of the process. Let them give you some recs for the specific system based on your house and your budget.
 
When we had our system replaced--heat pump for cooling and natural gas for heating, stove, and hot water--the first words out of the estimator's mouth were, IIRC, "OK, I'm going to recommend you replace everything with exactly the same model as what you already have, only new. But please remember, even though we are putting in the same equipment, with same model numbers, it's not going to last as long as what is being replaced."
 
The quality of installation makes more difference than the brand of the unit you purchase.
 
Igs149 said:
Curious if folks have advice / strong feelings on HVAC units and cost. Live in Charlotte and replacing my furnace and AC in the attic. AC services our upstairs (ballpark at 1000ish sq ft) and furnace will service the whole house … 3500+ sq ft. Double high living room eats the upstairs a bit and makes the far bedroom (across the walkway) harder to cool.

Looking at:

Trane unit:
AC: 14 or 16 SEER AC, single stage;
Furnace: 60k BTU single stage/ 80% AFUE

Rheem
AC: 16K SEER
Furnace: 75k BTU single or two stage; 80% AFUE

Got quotes from $10-13.5k all-in.

This probably isn’t the forever home so would not go super high end. But with mortgage rates high, will likely be here at least 5 years so want something quality without busting the bank. I also strongly suspect my AC unit downstairs will likely go soon (given the one upstairs has) so definitely interested in making the right decision re quality.

Anyone an HVAC aficionado?
Click to expand...
I know a bit about HVAC, my father and brother both own HVAC companies and I worked in the industry for awhile.

What questions do you have?

Have you considered a heat pump? Have you looked into the rebates for heat pumps?

Do you have a zone system? How are you splitting the AC but not the heat? Or are you replacing two furnaces, but only one AC?

Do you have an open concept between the floors or just a set of stairs?

Is there any duct work included in those prices?
 
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Purple Nurple said:
These effin guys. That’s about $4k of equipment and a days work. I used to get units for my rentals $3500 (1500 sq ft) all in, now $7k. If my son doesn’t show more of an aptitude for science and math, he’s going straight to HVAC school. I’ll stake his business. $$ROI$$
Click to expand...
Yes, that seems high, but you know there are more cost to running a business than simply materials and labor.

my dad used to carry a printout he found that showed how much he had to spend before he even arrived on the job site.
Insurance, transportation, training (continuous education, required in NC), licensing, tools, inspections, etc.

Plus, the wholesale of equipment has increased. When I replaced my unit in my house, yes, I did it myself, I got the equipment at wholesale through my dad, and it was almost $4K for a 16 SEER unit then and that was 10 years ago. I'd imagine that the wholesale cost have risen at least 25-30% in a decade.

Plus labor, you can't hire a certified contractor for a day. HVAC techs can make $40+ an hour. The installer will make less, but the tech will have to check it before the final sign off. Then there's the cost of inspections, you are supposed to get a full replacement inspected.

Yes the companies are making profits, but they have to in order to stay in business.

I guess everything is worth what one is willing to pay, but I would prefer to pay for the quality and not find some cheap, fly by night installer, who doesn't do a quality job or stand behind his work.

A co-worker went cheap on his HVAC, started having issues less than 6 months later and the installer wouldn't return calls or fix the issue, he ended up paying a different contractor to fix everything.
 
05C40 said:
When we had our system replaced--heat pump for cooling and natural gas for heating, stove, and hot water--the first words out of the estimator's mouth were, IIRC, "OK, I'm going to recommend you replace everything with exactly the same model as what you already have, only new. But please remember, even though we are putting in the same equipment, with same model numbers, it's not going to last as long as what is being replaced."
Click to expand...
:) Planned obsolescence. They learned long ago that making a unit that last forever will eventually leave you with no customers, in general.

But, with some items, like HVAC, typically the improvements would be a reason for replacing after 20-25 years, even if the system is still functioning.

I recall my grandmother having the ugliest imaginable orangish shag carpet installed in her house in the '70's. That carpet looked as the same 30 years later as it did day one. (Still ugly as hell) Now days, one has to purchase really high-end carpet or it will start showing wear in a year or so.

I guess we can be thankful that they haven't figured out a way to make it a service with an annual renewal, as almost every software package is now.
 
UNCatTech said:
Yes, that seems high, but you know there are more cost to running a business than simply materials and labor.

my dad used to carry a printout he found that showed how much he had to spend before he even arrived on the job site.
Insurance, transportation, training (continuous education, required in NC), licensing, tools, inspections, etc.

Plus, the wholesale of equipment has increased. When I replaced my unit in my house, yes, I did it myself, I got the equipment at wholesale through my dad, and it was almost $4K for a 16 SEER unit then and that was 10 years ago. I'd imagine that the wholesale cost have risen at least 25-30% in a decade.

Plus labor, you can't hire a certified contractor for a day. HVAC techs can make $40+ an hour. The installer will make less, but the tech will have to check it before the final sign off. Then there's the cost of inspections, you are supposed to get a full replacement inspected.

Yes the companies are making profits, but they have to in order to stay in business.

I guess everything is worth what one is willing to pay, but I would prefer to pay for the quality and not find some cheap, fly by night installer, who doesn't do a quality job or stand behind his work.

A co-worker went cheap on his HVAC, started having issues less than 6 months later and the installer wouldn't return calls or fix the issue, he ended up paying a different contractor to fix everything.
Click to expand...
I did the same thing. 4100 sq ft, Heat pump, 4T 16 Seer in 2020. Bought it wholesale from a company in Fl $4000 i believe and had a friend tech install all for a little more than $8.
 
Purple Nurple said:
These effin guys. That’s about $4k of equipment and a days work. I used to get units for my rentals $3500 (1500 sq ft) all in, now $7k. If my son doesn’t show more of an aptitude for science and math, he’s going straight to HVAC school. I’ll stake his business. $$ROI$$
Click to expand...
Yeah the mark-up is insane.
bassydude77 said:
Did they do actual manual J and Maunal S calcs? No reason that one is suggesting 60KBtu's and the other 75. It will cost more, but I would suggest getting someone (3rd party) to do the calcs for the system. Very few HVAC guys really know how to properly size a system.
Two-stage/ variable speed is the only way to go. I would default to a higher SEER as well. Can you zone the upstairs and downstairs? Depending on how it is ducted you might be able to easily add a zone damper to split the system.
Click to expand...
Not to my knowledge. I can check what’s on the existing system. The 75 BTU is actually the cheaper option because it’s Rheem and not Trane.

The upstairs and downstairs are currently split I believe as they work off two different AC units.

In fact, the cheapest quote is the 2-stage furnace because he priced me a single stage and then had availability issues so now is gonna give me a 2-stage furnace at the original quote (which I already negotiated down a little at least).
 
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UNCatTech said:
I know a bit about HVAC, my father and brother both own HVAC companies and I worked in the industry for awhile.

What questions do you have?

Have you considered a heat pump? Have you looked into the rebates for heat pumps?

Do you have a zone system? How are you splitting the AC but not the heat? Or are you replacing two furnaces, but only one AC?

Do you have an open concept between the floors or just a set of stairs?

Is there any duct work included in those prices?
Click to expand...
I have not considered a heat pump. So would definitely be curious on benefits. / drawbacks.

System set up is 3 AC units. Each with separate thermostats. One for the bottom floor (under the house). One for the upstairs (in the attic) and one for the bonus room (as it is upstairs but walled off). The single furnace is in the attic.

No duct work “work” is contemplated as far as I can tell. The air vents / ducts look like they are in good shape but what would I know.

As to layout, it is pretty open concept downstairs …. Walk in door (with double high foyer), stairs to left, then double high living room straight ahead. Master is on the right downstairs. And the room over it basically has a cat walk that runs to it. Have a little trouble cooling that far room likely because it’s so easy to lose the AC and it’s a pretty long run for the vent over there.

As to queries - does 14/16 SEER sound right for an upstairs I described.

As to staging or variable units, would those be needed. Or is that nice to have but unnnecessary.

Are there any brands that are a hard no or you’d highly recommend. Right now, at just about $10k the Rheem install is my best price. Would get a 16SEER single stage AC and the two stage furnace described above.

Also basic metro pricing. Is $10k ballpark reasonable sounding? Should I keep looking. If I can be doing it for $6k, I would. If it’s gonna be $9k, but I could have the guys here for $10k tomorrow that seem reputable…I might just stick with what I have.
 
bassydude77 said:
Apologies for additional questions - Are you looking at (2) different systems? One for A/C and one for heating? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you get a furnace with a cooling coil? Maybe that is what is being suggested.
Click to expand...
I’m not certain. Perhaps. Sounds like a good question.
 
UNCatTech said:
Yes, that seems high, but you know there are more cost to running a business than simply materials and labor.

my dad used to carry a printout he found that showed how much he had to spend before he even arrived on the job site.
Insurance, transportation, training (continuous education, required in NC), licensing, tools, inspections, etc.

Plus, the wholesale of equipment has increased. When I replaced my unit in my house, yes, I did it myself, I got the equipment at wholesale through my dad, and it was almost $4K for a 16 SEER unit then and that was 10 years ago. I'd imagine that the wholesale cost have risen at least 25-30% in a decade.

Plus labor, you can't hire a certified contractor for a day. HVAC techs can make $40+ an hour. The installer will make less, but the tech will have to check it before the final sign off. Then there's the cost of inspections, you are supposed to get a full replacement inspected.

Yes the companies are making profits, but they have to in order to stay in business.

I guess everything is worth what one is willing to pay, but I would prefer to pay for the quality and not find some cheap, fly by night installer, who doesn't do a quality job or stand behind his work.

A co-worker went cheap on his HVAC, started having issues less than 6 months later and the installer wouldn't return calls or fix the issue, he ended up paying a different contractor to fix everything.
Click to expand...

I get that there is overhead, but we’re talking about $6-8k gross profit on the poster’s job. How will they stay in business?
 
Purple Nurple said:
I get that there is overhead, but we’re talking about $6-8k gross profit on the poster’s job. How will they stay in business?
Click to expand...
I did agree that it is high.

Really need more information from the OP as to what is being installed.
 
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