Agreed. Humans rarely survive a fall off the Golden Gate Bridge, which starts at a speed of 0 MPH. A plane falling straight down into the water at a speed of 150 mph is going to kill whoever survived the initial crash. The water temp isn't going to make a meaningful difference.
Aviation Crashes and other FAA News
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uncmba
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From The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.
Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.
The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
www.nytimes.com
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.
Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.
The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Staffing Was ‘Not Normal’ at Reagan Airport Tower, According to F.A.A. Report
The report, reviewed by The New York Times, said that one controller was communicating with both helicopters and planes. Those jobs are typically assigned to two people, not one.
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SoFrom The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.
Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.
The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Staffing Was ‘Not Normal’ at Reagan Airport Tower, According to F.A.A. Report
The report, reviewed by The New York Times, said that one controller was communicating with both helicopters and planes. Those jobs are typically assigned to two people, not one.
Likely this..Thanks for the link
CFordUNC
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I haven’t quite caught up on this thread so I’m sorry if I’m repeating something that has already been shared, but I’m connecting through CLT right now and it’s very somber here. Apparently the flight crew on the American Airlines flight last night was Charlotte based.
Badbehavior1015
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Only 10 comments before superwhiner mentions Trump. Damn, pimp. Are you still crying? Geeez, go see a therapist.
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Wrong thread. Try this one for pissing matches.
Badbehavior1015
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OahuHiHeel
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From my earlier post:
My step daughter's boyfriend is a Marine at Joint Basis Anacostia-Bolling in the helicopter unit...
He said those choppers do their maneuvers day and night same flight path daily. They go over their barracks all the time he said. The crash happened just out over the river by the base
superrific
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Note in advance: this is a digression.
1. If you're comparing to a bridge jump, then you should be talking only about the vertical component of the velocity. Google says that the typical landing aircraft has a vertical velocity between 60-180 feet per minute, which is a few mph. I think you divide fpm by about 90 to get mph. Given that copter impacted from the bottom (if I understand correctly), I imagine it would be fine to model the plane as starting with a velocity of zero.
2. The force on impact for a bridge jumper will almost certainly be higher -- even at equivalent speeds -- to the impact force for a person in a plane, even a plunging plane fusilage. I don't know if planes have crumple zones like cars, but all metal crumples. In addition, there are other elements inside the cabin that provide some buffer, like the seat cushion.
The impact force is given by F = delta (mv)/delta(t). Typically, for catastrophic collisions, the delta t term is small -- probably hundredths of seconds, would be my guess. The mass term will cancel out in the analysis, so we can say that F = delta(v)/delta(t). For that reason, small changes in that delta t have big effects. For instance, if the velocity goes from X to 0 in .01 seconds, that would create 10x less force than in .001 seconds. Thus, even something like a seat cushion could make a difference.
In addition, the plane fusilage is unlikely to bounce. It is likely to slow down greatly upon hitting the water, but its vertical velocity is unlikely to go to zero -- i.e. it will sink into the water some upon impact. So even for the plane fusilage, the delta v will be smaller. Think of it like the difference between diving into a pool and cannonballing.
SO: if we are just addressing the lethality of the impact force, the bridge is considerably more deadly than a fall inside a plane. That would be my analysis. My bachelor's is in physics, but it was long ago.
3. More to the point: the data about water temps was introduced onto the thread, IIRC, from news articles interviewing crash experts. It was those experts who talked about the effects of the water temp. I see no reason to question them. If they thought the water temp would be a factor, I'm going to accept that.
The water temp and the fall, of course, only become relevant for people who survive the initial explosion. And my instinct -- backed by no real knowledge -- is that many if not all people were dead from that, given that we saw quite an explosion. If not the heat from the fuel, the shrapnel would do it. And perhaps the copter rotors, depending on how sturdy they are. I have no idea what happens if a copter rotor runs into a plane fusilage, but it seems plausible that the rotor would stand a fair chance of piercing the metal.
superrific
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That's obviously true of a civilian copter. But this was a military copter, which is presumably in the area as part of the air defense of the Capitol. In that situation, the presence of other aircraft might be a feature, not a bug, for a training or certification mission. IDK. I'm reluctant to say that the people who make these plans are stupid without having a solid basis of knowledge, especially of the copters' missions.
superrific
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They are separate jobs that can be done by different people, as I understand it. That doesn't necessarily mean that one controller was doing the job of two (though that might have been the case). For instance, let's say there are normally 6 controllers and one gets sick and can't work. The other 5 have to cover the 6ths jobs. That's an increase but it's not a doubling.
From The NY Times:
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.
Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.
The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Staffing Was ‘Not Normal’ at Reagan Airport Tower, According to F.A.A. Report
The report, reviewed by The New York Times, said that one controller was communicating with both helicopters and planes. Those jobs are typically assigned to two people, not one.
That’s interesting. On NPR earlier they had a former commercial pilot and instructor who emphasized that the ATC did a great job throughout the encounter. I wonder what could have gone differently with another ATC there since apparently the helicopter pilot answered in the affirmative when asked if he was monitoring the plane.
The plane is starting from a much higher height than the bridge jumper. I think the plane altitude was 400 feet or so at the point of impact. The Golden Gate Bridge is 220 feet. You do get some of the parachute not opening cases where the person survives, but I would think the extra 180 feet is significant (even if the forward momentum is canceled out)
More to the point, I am not aware of anyone ever surviving a plane crash when the plane has fallen straight down. When the plane crashes at an angle to the ground it can absorb some of the impact. Are you aware of any plane crashes where anyone survived impact from a straight vertical fall of 400 feet?
ZenMode
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DCA tower staffing was 'not normal' during crash, preliminary FAA report finds
A preliminary FAA report on the collision found that air traffic control tower staffing at Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA) was "not normal" for the amount of air traffic and for the time of day, a source with knowledge of the situation told NBC News.
The tower typically has a controller that focuses specifically on helicopter traffic. But at the time of the crash last night, the source said, one controller at DCA was overseeing both airplane and helicopter activity.
FAA guidelines do allow for this position to be combined, permitting one controller to control both airplanes and helicopters.
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The investigation will need to determine whether the alleged understaffing was unique in this instance to the normal course of operations of the DCA tower.
This is the first commercial air crash in 16 years. Given that record, I'm having difficulty believing the air system is chronically understaffed.
This is the first commercial air crash in 16 years. Given that record, I'm having difficulty believing the air system is chronically understaffed.
