Biden catch-all | Kamala comes out swinging

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Painful but probably the right thing to do. If we're going to get greenhouse gases under control, we have to address transportation and anything that makes internal combustion engines less palatable makes electric cars more palatable.
 
Will merge with existing thread and update the catch-all headline for this significant decision.
 

Sweeping Biden offshore drilling ban throws wrench in Trump's plans​


"...

Why it matters: The sweeping actions — which drew strong criticism from the oil industry — may hinder President-elect Trump's ability to quickly deliver on plans to scale up fossil fuel production.
  • The steps rely on a provision from a 72-year-old law and affect wildlife-rich areas in the northern Bering Sea; the eastern Pacific Ocean off the West Coast; the eastern Gulf of Mexico; and areas up and down the East Coast.
Driving the news: The steps, in the form of two presidential memos, are designed to permanently protect vast tracts of offshore lands to potentially benefit states dependent on fisheries and tourism.
  • Withdrawing hundreds of millions of acres — equivalent in size to the states of Alaska, California and Colorado — from potential leasing may also help limit greenhouse gas emissions that are causing global warming.
Unlike executive orders that Trump could overturn with the stroke of a pen, Biden's actions rely on an open-ended provision in the 1953 Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act.
  • This law governs energy leasing activities for submerged lands under U.S. control that are beyond three miles from shore.
  • A provision in the act allows the president to permanently take parts of the Outer Continental Shelf off the table for leasing activities, without providing a means for another president to undo the action. ..."
 
Centerpiece said:
It’s not painful at all. By any stretch. Ain’t nobody gonna suffer any pain from this executive action. None whatsoever. As a matter of fact, there will be several entities on this planet that may be saved from any pain and suffering.
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At all? Higher gas costs won't cause anyone pain? I find that claim ludicrous.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
At all? Higher gas costs won't cause anyone pain? I find that claim ludicrous.
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Why? Depending on depth, it's 4 to 10 years before you can get product to market. That's if it's successful which is only around 30% of the time. You're right that it could possibly drive up oil prices but, if you look at the current energy situation, we might very well not need it by the time we get it. Kicking the can down the road to preserve a moribund industry for their benefit while harming almost everybody else doesn't float my boat. Every year we do it increases the unseen environmental damages we pay for so they can make more money.
 
Got this song (theme song to the Norwegian show "Occupied") stuck in my head now ...

"...
Keep that fire burning, keep a keen eye on the count
The bounty of the ocean, astronomical amounts
You all know where it's coming from, you all know where it's going
Yes, in the end I always had a cut of every coin

Welcome to the seaside, it's been occupied
Burrow to the bottom, and behold!
The mother lode
You enjoy the seaside now, blindly occupied
Burrow to the bottom, and behold!
The mother lode of black and gold"

 
gtyellowjacket said:
So the following will not suffer any pain from this executive action?

-Petroleum industry workers?
-Employees of suppliers of the industry?
-Owners/shareholders of those companies?
-People that will still be driving gas cars in 6-10 years?

I would have a hard time believing how that within those groups "Ain’t nobody gonna suffer any pain from this executive action. None whatsoever." That is an absurd statement.
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What's with the moving goalposts? Below is what I responded to. What is the connection to what you're posting now? I never said no one would suffer any pain. Frankly, I care as much about them as they did the whale oil providers in their day.

Thought I made it clear that I had no use for the oil companies or industry. The single biggest mistake Reagan made of many was selling American and alternate energy research out in favor of the oil companies. It completed our enthrallment to the oil companies that started with Rockefeller and left us hopelessly entangled in the ME. There's no telling how many lives or how much money maintaining that as a source for oil has cost the American taxpayer. You know the spot price for oil isn't nearly the real price that the alliances, subsidies and treaties to get access to that oil costs us.

I protested your claims about the effect of higher gas prices because I don't believe you can predict the future. It was your claims that was ludicrous. So was your attempt to change the conversation.

At all? Higher gas costs won't cause anyone pain? I find that claim ludicrous.
 
finesse said:
What's with the moving goalposts? Below is what I responded to. What is the connection to what you're posting now? I never said no one would suffer any pain. Frankly, I care as much about them as they did the whale oil providers in their day.

Thought I made it clear that I had no use for the oil companies or industry. The single biggest mistake Reagan made of many was selling American and alternate energy research out in favor of the oil companies. It completed our enthrallment to the oil companies that started with Rockefeller and left us hopelessly entangled in the ME. There's no telling how many lives or how much money maintaining that as a source for oil has cost the American taxpayer. You know the spot price for oil isn't nearly the real price that the alliances, subsidies and treaties to get access to that oil costs us.

I protested your claims about the effect of higher gas prices because I don't believe you can predict the future. It was your claims that was ludicrous. So was your attempt to change the conversation.

At all? Higher gas costs won't cause anyone pain? I find that claim ludicrous.
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Yeah. Sorry. Got you and Centerpiece confused. I'll delete and ask him the question.
 
Centerpiece said:
Correct. Not at all.
Doubtful this action will amount to higher gas prices.
The claim you find ludicrous, duly noted.
Click to expand...
So the following will not suffer any pain from this executive action?

-Petroleum industry workers?
-Employees of suppliers of the industry?
-Owners/shareholders of those companies?
-People that will still be driving gas cars in 6-10 years?

I would have a hard time believing how that within those groups "Ain’t nobody gonna suffer any pain from this executive action. None whatsoever." That is an absurd statement.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
So the following will not suffer any pain from this executive action?

-Petroleum industry workers?
-Employees of suppliers of the industry?
-Owners/shareholders of those companies?
-People that will still be driving gas cars in 6-10 years?

I would have a hard time believing how that within those groups "Ain’t nobody gonna suffer any pain from this executive action. None whatsoever." That is an absurd statement.
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"Pain" is doing a lot of work there. If gas prices are 3 cents higher, that would be a negative effect but not pain.

There's a word in economics for a policy that is better for some people and worse for nobody. It's called "Pareto superior." And the general consensus is that Pareto superior actions are vanishingly rare outside of tiny groups of people. Thus, when people say "nobody," they typically do not mean "not a single person anywhere." That is, they aren't asserting Pareto superiority in casual conversation. Keep that in mind before being so literal.

Also, interestingly enough, it's because pareto superiority is so rare that pareto optimality is so common. Which most people find counter-intuitive. What is really says is that Pareto efficiency is not a useful concept in policy making. It's most used analogically in systems theory, I think.
 
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