AlbionAmerican
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Really sad, Palisades was a beautiful area.
California Fires - Politics of Blame
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PandemicBlue
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There is a 100 billion gallons of water a year that doesn't go to Southern California because of the Delta Smelt but instead, is routed out into the Pacific Ocean. I don't know whether that is good or bad but apparently those are the facts.
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“… Trump appeared to be referring to water imported south from the Bay-Delta, fed by Northern California rivers and snowmelt.
But most Los Angeles water does not come from Northern California.
It comes via the city’s 112-year-old aqueduct that runs from the Owens Valley east of the Sierra Nevada, not the Delta, as well as groundwater. The city also imports water from the Metropolitan Water District, which relays water from the Colorado River and Delta to numerous local agencies. The city was the main motivating force for the building of the Colorado River Aqueduct in the 1930s.
In December, the Biden administration and state officials agreed to a new long-term operating plan for the Delta water projects that effectively replaced rules produced by the first Trump administration in 2019 — an action that may have sparked Trump’s latest social media post.
The new rules adjust water allocations for cities and farms and attempt to restore depleted populations of salmon and other fish, including the endangered Delta smelt. Some Central Valley farmers and Southern California cities will see more water and have endorsed the plan, while some farmers will get less. Water exports from the Delta to the San Joaquin Valley and Southern California via the State Water Project increase under the new plan.”
laist.com
But most Los Angeles water does not come from Northern California.
It comes via the city’s 112-year-old aqueduct that runs from the Owens Valley east of the Sierra Nevada, not the Delta, as well as groundwater. The city also imports water from the Metropolitan Water District, which relays water from the Colorado River and Delta to numerous local agencies. The city was the main motivating force for the building of the Colorado River Aqueduct in the 1930s.
In December, the Biden administration and state officials agreed to a new long-term operating plan for the Delta water projects that effectively replaced rules produced by the first Trump administration in 2019 — an action that may have sparked Trump’s latest social media post.
The new rules adjust water allocations for cities and farms and attempt to restore depleted populations of salmon and other fish, including the endangered Delta smelt. Some Central Valley farmers and Southern California cities will see more water and have endorsed the plan, while some farmers will get less. Water exports from the Delta to the San Joaquin Valley and Southern California via the State Water Project increase under the new plan.”
Fact check: Why is Trump blaming the LA fires on Newsom’s water policies?
President-elect Donald Trump faulted California water policies for the devastating wildfires that are burning in Los Angeles County. The fires started because of fierce winds and extremely dry conditions.
laist.com
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More background from 2019, during Trump45:
www.theguardian.com
“… A 2019 study by Rosenfield and his colleagues at the San Francisco Bay Institute and the Nature Conservancy found that the amount of water the pumps could pull was most often limited by the need to keep saltwater at bay.
If enough fresh water isn’t, to paraphrase Donald Trump, shoved out to sea, the sea will shove into shore, flooding the estuary with salt water.
“And, no one wants salt water,” Rosenfield says. “You cannot apply saltwater to farmland. That’s what the Romans did to punish their enemies.”
In most years between 2011 and 2018 – at peak drought – maintenance issues, and a lack of storage capacity limited pumping more than the smelt did, as did protections for other threatened and endangered fish. “The smelt are just a scapegoat,” Rosenfield says.
Durand says he’s sick of talking about delta smelt. “At the end of the day, sure, it’s just a crummy little fish and there aren’t a lot of them left,” he says. “But then, every time we lose a species it’s just a sign that there are more losses to come.”
If the delta smelt go, California may be able to pump some more. But then their cousins, the longfin smelt, could disappear next, and then the steelhead trout, and then the various populations of Chinook salmon. “Where do we draw the line?” Durand says. “I don’t know how much more stress the system can take.” …”
Delta smelt: the tiny fish caught in California's war with Trump
Harbingers of a diminishing ecosystem, the smelt are almost extinct. Now, forces within the Trump administration could usher them into oblivion
“… A 2019 study by Rosenfield and his colleagues at the San Francisco Bay Institute and the Nature Conservancy found that the amount of water the pumps could pull was most often limited by the need to keep saltwater at bay.
If enough fresh water isn’t, to paraphrase Donald Trump, shoved out to sea, the sea will shove into shore, flooding the estuary with salt water.
“And, no one wants salt water,” Rosenfield says. “You cannot apply saltwater to farmland. That’s what the Romans did to punish their enemies.”
In most years between 2011 and 2018 – at peak drought – maintenance issues, and a lack of storage capacity limited pumping more than the smelt did, as did protections for other threatened and endangered fish. “The smelt are just a scapegoat,” Rosenfield says.
Durand says he’s sick of talking about delta smelt. “At the end of the day, sure, it’s just a crummy little fish and there aren’t a lot of them left,” he says. “But then, every time we lose a species it’s just a sign that there are more losses to come.”
If the delta smelt go, California may be able to pump some more. But then their cousins, the longfin smelt, could disappear next, and then the steelhead trout, and then the various populations of Chinook salmon. “Where do we draw the line?” Durand says. “I don’t know how much more stress the system can take.” …”
ZenMode
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Whoops.
The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power was pumping more water from aqueducts and groundwater into the system, but demand was so high, that wasn't enough to refill three one-million gallon tanks in hilly Pacific Palisades that help pressurize hydrants for the neighborhood. Many went dry and at least 1,000 buildings were engulfed in flames.
In a forceful press conference, officials implored residents to conserve water and not attempt to fight fire with garden hoses.
"I would ask that you turn off your water and turn off your gas, both things before you leave the residence so that we can continue to have that water supply for the hydrant system," said Mark Pestrella, director of Los Angeles County Department of Public Works.
That prompted a swirl of criticism on social media against Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass and Gov. Gavin Newsom's water management policies.
"You got thousands of homes destroyed, families destroyed, businesses destroyed. I think you can figure out a way to get more water in the hydrants. I don't think there's room for excuses here," said Rick Caruso, a real estate developer and former commissioner with the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, who came in second in the last Los Angeles mayors race.
abc7.com
Fire hydrants ran dry in Southern California just when they were needed most
The water system used to fight the Palisades fire in Los Angeles buckled under the demands of what turned out to be the most destructive fire in Los Angeles history. Some hydrants ran dry, hindering the fight against the flames, local water officials said Wednesday.The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power was pumping more water from aqueducts and groundwater into the system, but demand was so high, that wasn't enough to refill three one-million gallon tanks in hilly Pacific Palisades that help pressurize hydrants for the neighborhood. Many went dry and at least 1,000 buildings were engulfed in flames.
In a forceful press conference, officials implored residents to conserve water and not attempt to fight fire with garden hoses.
"I would ask that you turn off your water and turn off your gas, both things before you leave the residence so that we can continue to have that water supply for the hydrant system," said Mark Pestrella, director of Los Angeles County Department of Public Works.
That prompted a swirl of criticism on social media against Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass and Gov. Gavin Newsom's water management policies.
"You got thousands of homes destroyed, families destroyed, businesses destroyed. I think you can figure out a way to get more water in the hydrants. I don't think there's room for excuses here," said Rick Caruso, a real estate developer and former commissioner with the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, who came in second in the last Los Angeles mayors race.
Fire hydrants ran dry in Southern California just when they were needed most
The water system used to fight the Palisades fire in Los Angeles buckled under the demands of what turned out to be the most destructive fire in Los Angeles history.
1moretimeagain
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GIFT LINK —> https://wapo.st/4h3R5Zi
“…
“There is no relationship between federal and state water management and the intensity of these fires or the ability of people to fight these fires,” said Jeffrey Mount, a senior fellow at the Public Policy Institute of California, a nonpartisan think tank. Instead, he said, lack of rain and severe winds created dangerous conditions.
“Right now Southern California has ample water supplies, their reservoirs are full — they’re well above historical averages. They do a very good job of managing water. There is no shortage of water in Southern California, that’s just not true,” Mount added.
He said some hydrants are running dry not because the region ran out of water, but because pressure drops with high demand, making it harder to move water around.
Los Angeles’ vegetation, which is highly flammable, exacerbates the problems caused by dry conditions and high winds, said Matthew Hurteau, a forestry vegetation expert and professor at the University of New Mexico.
… Los Angeles officials have acknowledged that the four active blazes — two of which have grown to more than 10,000 acres — are overwhelming their resources.
… Trump’s allies also zeroed in on Democratic Mayor Karen Bass’s absence from the city when the fires broke out. Bass, who was part of a presidential delegation to Ghana but has since returned to California, said Wednesday that she spoke with Biden and “discussed an urgent path forward towards recovery for the thousands of families impacted.” …”
“…
“There is no relationship between federal and state water management and the intensity of these fires or the ability of people to fight these fires,” said Jeffrey Mount, a senior fellow at the Public Policy Institute of California, a nonpartisan think tank. Instead, he said, lack of rain and severe winds created dangerous conditions.
“Right now Southern California has ample water supplies, their reservoirs are full — they’re well above historical averages. They do a very good job of managing water. There is no shortage of water in Southern California, that’s just not true,” Mount added.
He said some hydrants are running dry not because the region ran out of water, but because pressure drops with high demand, making it harder to move water around.
Los Angeles’ vegetation, which is highly flammable, exacerbates the problems caused by dry conditions and high winds, said Matthew Hurteau, a forestry vegetation expert and professor at the University of New Mexico.
… Los Angeles officials have acknowledged that the four active blazes — two of which have grown to more than 10,000 acres — are overwhelming their resources.
… Trump’s allies also zeroed in on Democratic Mayor Karen Bass’s absence from the city when the fires broke out. Bass, who was part of a presidential delegation to Ghana but has since returned to California, said Wednesday that she spoke with Biden and “discussed an urgent path forward towards recovery for the thousands of families impacted.” …”
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“… By 3 a.m. Wednesday, all water storage tanks in the Palisades area “went dry,” diminishing the flow of water from hydrants in higher elevations, said Janisse Quiñones, chief executive and chief engineer of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, the city’s utility.
“We had a tremendous demand on our system in the Palisades. We pushed the system to the extreme,” Quiñones said Wednesday morning. “Four times the normal demand was seen for 15 hours straight, which lowered our water pressure.”
…
Quiñones and other DWP officials said that the city was fighting a wildfire in hilly terrain with an urban water system, and that at lower elevations in Pacific Palisades, water pressure remained strong.
Before the fire, all 114 tanks that supply the city water infrastructure were completely filled.
Quiñones said that the hydrants in the Palisades rely on three large water tanks with about 1 million gallons each. The first ran dry at 4:45 p.m. Tuesday; the second at 8:30 p.m.; and the third was dry at 3 a.m. Wednesday.
“Those tanks help with the pressure on the fire hydrants in the hills in the Palisades, and because we were pushing so much water in our trunk line, and so much water was being used. ... we were not able to fill the tanks fast enough,” she said. “So the consumption of water was faster than we can provide water in a trunk line.”
In other words, the demand for water at lower elevations was hampering the ability to refill the tanks located at higher elevations. Because of the ongoing fire, DWP crews also faced difficulty accessing its pump stations, which are used to move water up to the tanks.
… It’s unclear how widespread the hydrant issues were. In November, the lack of water from hydrants hurt the effort to combat the Mountain fire in Ventura County, when two water pumps became inactive, slowing the process to deliver hillside water.
…
Caruso, who also ran unsuccessfully for mayor in 2022, contended that the challenges were avoidable.
“This is a window into a systemic problem of the city — not only of mismanagement, but our infrastructure is old,” Caruso said. …”
www.latimes.com
——
Several things seem to be true at once. There are valid reasons why extreme circumstances taxed water pressure during this crisis. But also the infrastructure requires a major overhaul in the face of increased pressure of these kinds of fires happening regularly with increased intensity in more densely populated areas.
“We had a tremendous demand on our system in the Palisades. We pushed the system to the extreme,” Quiñones said Wednesday morning. “Four times the normal demand was seen for 15 hours straight, which lowered our water pressure.”
…
Quiñones and other DWP officials said that the city was fighting a wildfire in hilly terrain with an urban water system, and that at lower elevations in Pacific Palisades, water pressure remained strong.
Before the fire, all 114 tanks that supply the city water infrastructure were completely filled.
Quiñones said that the hydrants in the Palisades rely on three large water tanks with about 1 million gallons each. The first ran dry at 4:45 p.m. Tuesday; the second at 8:30 p.m.; and the third was dry at 3 a.m. Wednesday.
“Those tanks help with the pressure on the fire hydrants in the hills in the Palisades, and because we were pushing so much water in our trunk line, and so much water was being used. ... we were not able to fill the tanks fast enough,” she said. “So the consumption of water was faster than we can provide water in a trunk line.”
In other words, the demand for water at lower elevations was hampering the ability to refill the tanks located at higher elevations. Because of the ongoing fire, DWP crews also faced difficulty accessing its pump stations, which are used to move water up to the tanks.
… It’s unclear how widespread the hydrant issues were. In November, the lack of water from hydrants hurt the effort to combat the Mountain fire in Ventura County, when two water pumps became inactive, slowing the process to deliver hillside water.
…
Caruso, who also ran unsuccessfully for mayor in 2022, contended that the challenges were avoidable.
“This is a window into a systemic problem of the city — not only of mismanagement, but our infrastructure is old,” Caruso said. …”
Fire hydrants ran dry as Pacific Palisades burned. L.A. city officials blame 'tremendous demand'
Firefighters battling the Palisades fire dealt with hydrants that had little to no water flowing out. By 3 a.m. Wednesday, all hydrants 'went dry,' an LADWP official says.
www.latimes.com
——
Several things seem to be true at once. There are valid reasons why extreme circumstances taxed water pressure during this crisis. But also the infrastructure requires a major overhaul in the face of increased pressure of these kinds of fires happening regularly with increased intensity in more densely populated areas.
superrific
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Hopefully nycfan's excellent links have disabused you of this notion. We also have a hydrologist on this board who can surely answer your questions.
Water doesn't get "routed" to the sea. It flows. It naturally flows to the sea because gravity. "Routing" water takes it out of its natural course, and we do some of it for irrigation. But remember: the sea is salty. Rivers are not. Where rivers and sea meet, there's an estuary, where the tides push salt water inland and the freshwater dilutes it and carries it back out. Except if there's not enough freshwater, the salt water will win. Salt will get into the aquifers and that is very bad.
It's not as if this is only a California problem. Everywhere there are beaches, there are saltwater issues. Especially when there are golf courses nearby. The golf courses suck so much freshwater out of the ground that the salt water can leech in and pretty soon the wells are salty. That's bad. This was a big problem (and I think it still is) on Long Island. I would be shocked if NC didn't have any of these issues near the coast (although the gentle slope to the sea might affect that -- again, we'd want to ask the hydrologist about that). FL definitely does -- it's why an apartment building just collapsed there.
So, have you learned something?
thebruinbleedstarheelblue
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its very real in Hollywood. it looks like they stopped the Hollywood Hills Blaze from coming down, but that's a couple miles from Hollywood.
I can see the Hollywood sign from my balcony facing the hills. Luckily one of my neighbors is an environmental scientist and giving us the real updates, but we are definitely on evacuation watch and it could get weird out here.
i just got back in town from EOY this morning
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Good luck! Hope you’re able to stay put.its very real in Hollywood. it looks like they stopped the Hollywood Hills Blaze from coming down, but that's a couple miles from Hollywood.
I can see the Hollywood sign from my balcony facing the hills. Luckily one of my neighbors is an environmental scientist and giving us the real updates, but we are definitely on evacuation watch and it could get weird out here.
i just got back in town from EOY this morning
rodoheel
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