Changing Tenor in HR Departments

Would love to hear about those cases...
In the case of admissions to UNC, I would give preference to in-state students over more highly qualified out-of-state students. I would give preference to students based on their economic circumstances with a poor student given preference over a similarly qualified wealthier student. This one hurts, but I do think we should give preference to less qualified students in rural counties versus being overwhelmed by students from the major Metro areas of North Carolina.
 
Progressives say that the Dems are all about the middle class, and only give lip service to the poor. I think that critique is more accurate than what you have stated. No offense intended. The problem I have with progressives is a lack of realistic remedies. It's the same way that Marx was very insightful until it came time to say what communism should actually be. Then he was like, eh let me stammer for a few pages. So what we got was dictatorship of the proletariat, which was even worse than the problem it solved.
No offense taken. I think progressives have a point... but I'd say the Dems are also paying lip service to the middle class. I'm not really clear who they are serving these days... how else does an abomination like Trump rise?
 
The author’s misplaced grievance is DEI when the proper target is found, in his specific context, in “elite overproduction” (see: Elite overproduction - Wikipedia) during an era of declining social mobility and overall career opportunities.

Young white men, with nearly two decades of social and educational backsliding, are particularly impacted by these social forces as they have been acculturated to expect smooth sailing in their social advancements. Instead they are having to compete for limited resources within a contingent that has grown exponentially larger by, primarily, the impact of women in the workforce but also the presence of minorities who are historically marginalized from the juiciest job opportunities. Add in the presence of highly skilled immigrants, and you’ve got a recipe for resentment that opportunistic politicians are eager to exploit.

All of this and the morbid economic inequality that exists are easily foreseeable results of the neoliberal order. Our politicians, steadfastly beholden to the donor class, are loathe to focus on the reality and thus redirect with culture wars a la the initial post.

Don’t hate the players; hate the game.
This is a very good post... people want to believe their jobs are being taken by less qualified minorities... in truth they are being taken by the glut of highly qualified people hitting the market when premier jobs are not restricted primarily to white men.
 
No offense taken. I think progressives have a point... but I'd say the Dems are also paying lip service to the middle class. I'm not really clear who they are serving these days... how else does an abomination like Trump rise?
The line between "only paying lip service to everyone" and "being foiled by Manchinema, an obstructionist Supreme Court, and the GOP" is thin.
 
Did you read the article? Yes, plenty of right-wingers have completely distorted what DEI means. But the author recounts an experience in which the DEI functioned in pretty much the same way. Whether or not he's actually right in a larger sense is unclear -- he certainly didn't prove that case if he was making it. I would be skeptical, for sure. But that doesn't negate his own experience, which matters.

If we can't resolve it, we can at least acknowledge it. Every policy has winners and losers. Slavery was the ultimate "white people win; black people lose" policy. Jim Crow and segregation had that same binary, though the effect was weaker (but still really strong!). Subtle workplace discrimination is closer to balance than those two forms (note: I am choosing extreme examples for illustration), but still favors white people.

DEI is a flip of the script on the subtle forms. It's the idea that, if we're going to err, let's do so on the side of inclusion. How about extending the benefit of the doubt to minorities for the first time in centuries. I mean, this is only a first-order approximation and I'm not going to defend it as any precise description, but I think you could do a lot worse for a single sentence.

And that is perhaps a salutary development. In my view, its dominant property is its limited applicability. In most cases, it doesn't make a difference.

But when there are cases in which it does make a difference, we ought to be honest about that. We ought to be able to accept that DEI has some losers to it. That doesn't mean it should be ended any more than free trade should be ended because it closed the textile mills. It does seem wrong to me, though, to scoff at the losers' experience. When we say that DEI only hurts mediocre white men -- well, what does that prove, exactly? Mediocrity is a universal human condition that has existed in all societies at all times -- indeed, it's definitional. You can't have a great basketball player unless there are a bunch of mediocre ones. And so the mediocre matter too.

One thing that has happened, perhaps at the margins of MAGA, is that the mediocre have decided that liberals don't give a shit about them. Which isn't true, in my view -- in fact, liberals are way better about caring about people in general, of all stripes, than fascists. But the language and the attitudes can give that impression. And when you glom that onto the traditional in-group/out-group set of biases, amplified by social media, you get the monstrous exaggerated forms like Trump.

I'm not going to be holier than thou -- I'm sure I have used that rhetoric before. I surely contributed to the problem. I'm trying to do better, to live up to a pretty good mantra: have empathy for everyone -- the folk version of which is close to "don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
Well, I did not initially read the article. I often just turn to What's New and read the latest messages. Those included lots of misuses of the term DEI.

I take the topic rather seriously because over two decades ago I found myself serving on two small university-wide committees charged with drafting "Plans for Diversity." Both became passed by the university. (I changed jobs, which is how I found myself doing this twice.) In short, "Diversity" and "inclusion" etc. movements/regulations are organized around the notion of creating an improved/inclusive COMMUNITY. Bothj plans included multiple proposals, largely oriented around improving knowledge and resources of all sorts. [Essentially, if the school is going to create a diverse community, then it also should provife resources for folks who are part of various minorities, and they also should provide information for the white majority so it can learn about the diverse segments of that community. These Diversity Plans were not largely about hiring or quotas, although the plans did include advice on how hiring committees could go about their business.


Now I have read (or skimmed) the article. There is much that one might say, but my chief response is that the author really lacks a good sense of quantitative methods, The numbers offered do not generally support the larger points. I don't really have time to spell that out in more detail. [It sort of reminds me of articles on Inside Carolina that were generally written by folks who had no training in writing about numbers.]
 
I think this is the crux of the article. It sounds like a worthy goal to address that bias from the past but that opinion seems to be more commonly held amongst people who benefited from that bias in the past versus the people who are facing very real discrimination today.

So is the remedy to discriminate to address the discrimination in the past? I don't think so, but I can certainly see why people make that argument.
I'm not saying to decriminalization to make up for the past, I'm saying work toward equal opportunity. I've never been in favor of anyone getting a job they do not deserve, rather that they get an opportunity for a job they are qualified for.
 
This is a very good post... people want to believe their jobs are being taken by less qualified minorities... in truth they are being taken by the glut of highly qualified people hitting the market when premier jobs are not restricted primarily to white men.
Succinctly stated but it’s not that they *want* to blame it on DEI/minorities: it’s that our political protectors of the plutocratic status quo don’t want them to blame a broken system. They offer instead scapegoats from outgroups.

It’s a very old con game.
 
From everything I've read the number one way to find a job in our current society is still to know someone, it's connections and networking more than merit.
I always considered that an unspoken part of DEI. Get enough minorities in the system that some of those connections and networkings diversify as well. Always been too cynical to think those things would be eliminated. Just hoped they'd be equalized as well.
 
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In the case of admissions to UNC, I would give preference to in-state students over more highly qualified out-of-state students. I would give preference to students based on their economic circumstances with a poor student given preference over a similarly qualified wealthier student. This one hurts, but I do think we should give preference to less qualified students in rural counties versus being overwhelmed by students from the major Metro areas of North Carolina.
So you are not opposed to affirmative action as long as it benefits red rural counties and not blue metro areas... got it :unsure:
 
So you are not opposed to affirmative action as long as it benefits red rural counties and not blue metro areas... got it :unsure:
Sure. Kids from all counties in the state should be represented at UNC.

And we actually live in one of those highly populated metro counties that would absolutely dominate admissions were it not for favorable admissions criteria for rural counties. That certainly hurts my kids' chances of getting in but I think it's the right thing to do for the greater good.
 
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Sure. Kids from all counties in the state should be represented at UNC.

And we actually live in one of those highly populated metro counties that would absolutely dominate admissions were it not for favorable admissions criteria for rural counties. That certainly hurts my kids' chances of getting in but I recognize it's the right thing to do.
Two out of three of mine got in after graduating from Chapel Hill High. The third wanted to get out of town and went to Happy Appy.
 
Succinctly stated but it’s not that they *want* to blame it on DEI/minorities: it’s that our political protectors of the plutocratic status quo don’t want them to blame a broken system. They offer instead scapegoats from outgroups.

It’s a very old con game.
I'd say it's 6 of one, half dozen of the others. I think many *want* to blame it on DEI/minorities, and Trump/MAGA have jumped on this to, as you said, protect the broken system that is more and more every day only serving the billionaire elite.
 
I'd say it's 6 of one, half dozen of the others. I think many *want* to blame it on DEI/minorities, and Trump/MAGA have jumped on this to, as you said, protect the broken system that is more and more every day only serving the billionaire elite.
Yes, bigotry is a product of toxic acculturation.
 
Sure. Kids from all counties in the state should be represented at UNC.

And we actually live in one of those highly populated metro counties that would absolutely dominate admissions were it not for favorable admissions criteria for rural counties. That certainly hurts my kids' chances of getting in but I think it's the right thing to do for the greater good.
We all have biases on which underprivileged populations deserve a little extra help... and which do not. Trying to cherry pick that we help this group and not that one is a path that's begging our unconscious biases to take over. Is it fair to say that we all have certain underprivileged groups that resonate with us… and ones ones which do not… who may have equally valid cases which just don't happen to resonate with us personally.

super has done a pretty good job here of pointing out that my unconscious bias against “mediocre white guys” is impacting my ability to have empathy for their case… and ultimately that’s just feeding the MAGA machine in providing more ammo to make that population feel looked down upon by the “liberal elite.”
 
We all have biases on which underprivileged populations deserve a little extra help... and which do not. Trying to cherry pick that we help this group and not that one is a path that's begging our unconscious biases to take over. Is it fair to say that we all have certain underprivileged groups that resonate with us… and ones ones which do not… who may have equally valid cases which just don't happen to resonate with us personally.

super has done a pretty good job here of pointing out that my unconscious bias against “mediocre white guys” is impacting my ability to have empathy for their case… and ultimately that’s just feeding the MAGA machine in providing more ammo to make that population feel looked down upon by the “liberal elite.”
I will completely agree. I have a bias against treating someone differently for the color of their skin for things like government benefits and jobs. And I have a bias for treating people differently for the economic circumstances they grew up in.

I can't say that it's right or wrong but I certainly have that opinion while I respect everyone else's that might be different, especially if they put forth a great argument.
 
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I will completely agree. I have a bias against treating someone differently for the color of their skin for things like government benefits and jobs. And I have a bias for treating people differently for the economic circumstances they grew up in.

I can't say that it's right or wrong but I certainly have that opinion while I respect everyone else's that might be different, especially if they put forth a great argument.
From my POV, underprivileged is underprivileged. Trying to sort out which set of underprivileged deserve help and which don't is just an exercise in bias. We have to decide whether we as a society believe in helping those who are less fortunate, or if we have abandoned the Christian underpinnings of our society and take on the position that they need to suck it up and pull up their bootstraps on their own. Once you start picking and choosing, **** goes sideways in a hurry.
 
From my POV, underprivileged is underprivileged. Trying to sort out which set of underprivileged deserve help and which don't is just an exercise in bias. We have to decide whether we as a society believe in helping those who are less fortunate, or if we have abandoned the Christian underpinnings of our society and take on the position that they need to suck it up and pull up their bootstraps on their own. Once you start picking and choosing, **** goes sideways in a hurry.
We already pick and choose. We don't give preferential college admission or jobs to short people or left handed people or people with a lisp or people with lower IQs or quadriplegics or any other of a host of criteria that someone somewhere could claim to make them underprivileged.

In my opinion things like economic circumstances should go on one side of the line while skin color shouldn't, but to say picking and choosing will cause chaos doesn't jive with reality. We pick and choose who's underprivileged enough to qualify for certain benefits all the time.
 
From everything I've read the number one way to find a job in our current society is still to know someone, it's connections and networking more than merit.
This is probably true, but it's also true that for most jobs, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who could do the job just as well as any of the others. It's not like there's really somebody (or some very small pool of candidates) who's way more qualified than anybody else to do most jobs. I mean, all the way up to something like the Supreme Court. There are probably 100 or more judges (and some non-judges) who are just as qualified as the ones on the bench now. More qualified, I'm sure some people would say, but at any rate, equally qualified. Just look around anywhere you go at anybody you see doing any job. Do you really think that pretty much anybody could do almost any of these jobs just as well as the person who actually has it? I do. It's not like we're a society full of rocket scientists...
 
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