Charlie Kirk shot and killed at Utah rally.

OGtruthhurts said:
both sheep flocks are snowflakes to the upmost degree
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Callatoroy said:
Completely disagree. The right has been more vocal (trump in particular) since the shooting. But sine trump 1.0 the left’s rhetoric has been just as destructive. Im not going to search and post the comments from Biden, Harris, pelosi, waltz, waters, a OC, Crockett, dnc chairpersons, etc. because 1) you don’t care, and 2) if you do you can find them. keeping score isn’t my point, which is that it is ALL a threat. To try and score it as to which side is worse is in some manner accepting of some of it. You either are against it all or you accept it. There is no in between.
Misusing labels such as racist, fascist, etc is also a form of violent rhetoric because it fuels violence and creates division. Calling people nazis and hitler is done for shock value and to instill hatred. So no, it isn’t a right thing. It’s an American political environment thing. If you don’t want to perpetuate it then quit using those terms and find more intelligent ways to communicate your thoughts. This is a topic that we should all be able to agree on and one that isn’t subject to “team” pettiness.
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How do you respond to someone like Trump without being divisive, though? If you elect someone like him, can you entirely blame the other political party for responding in kind, particularly while also claiming that empathy and kindness are for the weak?
 
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Healing said:
Long post - fell down a rabbit hole ...

The Daily Mail (skepticism noted, and you can google the article if you like), has what appears to be a pretty well researched article linking alleged online handles of the killer and roommate to niche communities. Appears the killer was clearly deep into the toxic gaming world, and had recently been active in a furry forum with a sexualization bent. We also know the killer was steeped in Groyper lingo and memes.

The roommate appears to have been active in r/trans, while also subscribing to (via my lookup) Anarcho_Capitalism, 4chan, JordanPeterson, and a host of video game, anime, meme, cryptid forums. This roommate's apparent reddit handle was involved in an Anarcho_Capitalism thread during which the roommate's alleged handle responded "i like how you worded this" to the following framing of "the left":
  • When they (referring to "the left") are showing a man, balls out, in demon make up, reading to kids, they are not representing that community well (re: trans). I'm not talking about the confused 13 year old kid who just wanted to feel normal. They go find the worst of society to hold up just to "own the right"
Mind you, the thread they were commenting on was titled "The left deliberately makes transpeople look bad", following by the parent comment below:
  • This is a hypothesis I've had I'm pretty confident in. Nonsense like the bathroom debate, transpeople in sports and all the drag pushing (this last thing really has nothing to do with transpeople but can still be used to confuse normies) and in general all the screaming trans folks you see put on TV or in protests and rallies. It's all stuff that conveniently creates a divide to force transpeople to the left against the right which gets radicalized to hate them. It all seems orchestrated to create an oppressed minority to help maintain the left's power while also empowering the right to maintain the binary.
It seems online GamerGate like swamps have extremely odd bedfellows, with lots of sniping back and forth between the ideologies, in something more akin to edgy anarchy.

Lastly, I spent about 20 min reading posts by the roommate's alleged handle, and came across this one on the JordanPeterson sub, which feels particularly salient. In response to a question about avoiding "perilous pitfalls, such as ideological entanglements, when even individuals with higher moral and intellectual caliber have fallen into them?", the alleged roommate allegedly says:
  • Honestly I think everyone is going to land in these pitfalls, it's part of being human. Doing your best to recognize and remedy that is all you can do. Keep your strongest truths close to heart and don't be easily swayed in any direction without a strong and well put together reason. Even then you'll something realize the environment, friends, or communities you choose to spend time with aren't helping you grow or progress, or may otherwise be pushing towards an echo chamber. Being able to take a step away and reprioritize is the best you can do. If you aren't ever in a situation you didn't want to be in, chances are you never go out and meet people in general. Remember that just discussing a topic doesn't mean falling into an ideological pitfall. Keep your statements and opinions in line with each other, and make your own opinions base on factual evidence you have seen or read. I think the largest pitfall anyone could fall into would be to simply take to heart the opinions they see on social media. If you don't choose a side, a side will many times choose you. Keep yourself grounded mentally and emotionally, and don't worry yourself about being infallible.
My guess, the killer and the alleged roommate are a couple of intelligent young men who fell into the oddities of niche and often dark online gaming culture. It appears plausible the killer is both a Groyper, has a furry fetish and/or attraction, and has a friend/roommate/sexual partner with furry/trans/anarchocapitalist identities.

I suspect this is a strange estuary few of us have encountered, until now.
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It appears based on this information they are clearly not liberal but right-libertarians. Interesting.
 
Bobfripp said:
This will make the right wing happy ...

🎁 -> Kirk Shooting Suspect Held ‘Leftist Ideology,’ Utah Governor Says

“There clearly was a leftist ideology with this — with this assassin,” he said, citing the suspect’s family and romantic partner as sources of that information.

Was it really a 'leftist' ideology? Cox is full of it.
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I believe that the claims that his family claimed he was left wing has been withdrawn by most news sources. I don't know about his supposed romantic partner, but given that all we've heard so far is from this governor, who has been adamant from the start that the shooter just had to be a left-winger, and a Fox News contributor with unnamed sources, I'll wait for more official confirmation from less biased sources before taking it as gospel. It may be true, but given the less-than-stellar credibility of both of these sources it doesn't hurt to wait for more confirmation.
 
sringwal said:
How do you respond t o someone like Trump without being divisive, though? If you elect someone like him, can you entirely blame the other political party for responding in kind, particularly while also claiming that empathy and kindness are for the weak?
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By using his rhetoric against him to appeal to swing voters. Im pretty conservative and im fed up with the violent rhetoric. If I was head of the DNC I’d develop a strategy to call him out when he does it, talk about its destruction to the country, and offer an alternative to swing voters. I would forbid any D elected official from using it even to the point of withholding support if they do. I’d schedule appearances on TV, hold rallies around the country, and get out in front of it. I’d teach D politicians how to communicate without using it and how to debate in a manner that causes the right to appear nuts. But it has to be an issue that is led on. It won’t happen on its on. It also means the left has to break away from its propensity to label people. Most non fringe voters and swing voters aren’t racist, fascists, misogynistic, and phobics. Calling them that fosters anger and turns people off.
 
Callatoroy said:
Most non fringe voters and swing voters aren’t racist, fascists, misogynistic, and phobics. Calling them that fosters anger and turns people off.
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I agree with this, calla, with the possible exception of transphobic, which seems to me to be highly prevalent among the broad range of conservatives.

The problem, though, and I know I keep repeating myself, is that Trump and the people surrounding him ARE fascists. Or authoritarians at the very least. They DO pose an existential threat to our nation. So while I agree Dems must be careful in how they refer to Republicans writ large, it would be a dereliction of their duty not to call Trump and his team what they are. They’re the most powerful people in the world. They should be able to handle it.
 
Callatoroy said:
By using his rhetoric against him to appeal to swing voters. Im pretty conservative and im fed up with the violent rhetoric. If I was head of the DNC I’d develop a strategy to call him out when he does it, talk about its destruction to the country, and offer an alternative to swing voters. I would forbid any D elected official from using it even to the point of withholding support if they do. I’d schedule appearances on TV, hold rallies around the country, and get out in front of it. I’d teach D politicians how to communicate without using it and how to debate in a manner that causes the right to appear nuts. But it has to be an issue that is led on. It won’t happen on its on. It also means the left has to break away from its propensity to label people. Most non fringe voters and swing voters aren’t racist, fascists, misogynistic, and phobics. Calling them that fosters anger and turns people off.
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But on the left they are communists and pedophiles
 
lawtig02 said:
I agree with this, calla, with the possible exception of transphobic, which seems to me to be highly prevalent among the broad range of conservatives.

The problem, though, and I know I keep repeating myself, is that Trump and the people surrounding him ARE fascists. Or authoritarians at the very least. They DO pose an existential threat to our nation. So while I agree Dems must be careful in how they refer to Republicans writ large, it would be a dereliction of their duty not to call Trump and his team what they are. They’re the most powerful people in the world. They should be able to handle it.
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I think this is where I get stuck. The rhetoric needs to be toned down everywhere, sure and most especially online. And some liberals have been too quick to judge, and dox, people they disagree with.

But, for the first time in my life, I cannot say that I believe in the future of this country. And Trump played has played a starring role in that. Callatory, I get wanting a different route than we were going down, by either party. But Trump is not something that you can lay on democrats and just say, “he’s awful, sure, but don’t you dare call him a fascist.” I don’t use the term lightly. I have chided other liberals in the past, including family members, for overusing it because I was afraid of a boy who cries wolf scenario.

I have studied enough about fascism to recognize it. And Trump is, if not fascist, very close to the line, and has used a fascist playbook to get where he is. At best, he is an oligarch. And I don’t know what to do with that, except hope that he is closer to what you think he is than I do.

Because cruel people with power do cruel things, and view the world through a lens of power. And Trump is a cruel man.
 
Callatoroy said:
I will also add that im fully aware that the right is trying desperately to tie the shooter to anything at all to the left so it can “justify” its rhetoric and somehow paint the left as evil. I condemn it all because it’s done out of a desire to play politics and not identify a root cause for why he did what he did. I don’t give two fucks if he is trans, gay, radicalized right wing or radicalized left wing. I only care about what led him to the point it did and whether anything can be done to prevent the next one from happening. The “war” should be on “radicalization” and its causes, not on political parties.
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Amen to this.

Been saying it for years and it is and always has been my biggest fear of Trump himself. Fear is also the correct word for me. He terrified me from day one and I am more scared now. He scares me because he uses words to manipulate and he doesn't care about the fallout. I know the destructive power of that. He is far from the only one but he is the most dangerous because his following is so large and so willing.

I would crawl over hot fucking lava to have a Mitch McConnell or a Chris Christie or even a sniveling Ted Cruz as POTUS before Trump. Even if they enacted every policy I hated, none of those people threatens to put us where we are now and where we are likely headed.

But Trump? Not only will he allow it, but he will welcome it and shrug when it all crushes down. He is just that guy.
 
lawtig02 said:
I agree with this, calla, with the possible exception of transphobic, which seems to me to be highly prevalent among the broad range of conservatives.

The problem, though, and I know I keep repeating myself, is that Trump and the people surrounding him ARE fascists. Or authoritarians at the very least. They DO pose an existential threat to our nation. So while I agree Dems must be careful in how they refer to Republicans writ large, it would be a dereliction of their duty not to call Trump and his team what they are. They’re the most powerful people in the world. They should be able to handle it.
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I don’t know what to tell you other than read the room. A majority of voters apparently didn’t share your view that they (trump, Vance) were fascists or authoritarians. It doesn’t matter at all if trump and his cabinet can “handle” it because it isn’t about them. It’s about voters and whether they can handle it. The left has overused the labels so much they become meaningless. For a year and a half leading up to the election the left absolutely hammered trump as fascist and a threat to democracy, and even said if you vote for him you are supporting racism, fascism, etc. Yet they still voted for him because they don’t believe it because it became meaningless due to over-exaggeration and hyperbole. Continuing to beat that ineffective drum hasn’t worked and continuing to won’t work either. We could have a different conversation on another thread as to what it means and what would have to happen to overthrow the country. Not much more I can say on this topic but that the right isn’t going to tone down the rhetoric and the left can either continue the spiraling downward or use this as an opportunity to rebrand itself in a way that appeals to non hardcore righties and swing voters.
 
Callatoroy said:
I don’t know what to tell you other than read the room. A majority of voters apparently didn’t share your view that they (trump, Vance) were fascists or authoritarians. It doesn’t matter at all if trump and his cabinet can “handle” it because it isn’t about them. It’s about voters and whether they can handle it. The left has overused the labels so much they become meaningless. For a year and a half leading up to the election the left absolutely hammered trump as fascist and a threat to democracy, and even said if you vote for him you are supporting racism, fascism, etc. Yet they still voted for him because they don’t believe it because it became meaningless due to over-exaggeration and hyperbole. Continuing to beat that ineffective drum hasn’t worked and continuing to won’t work either. We could have a different conversation on another thread as to what it means and what would have to happen to overthrow the country. Not much more I can say on this topic but that the right isn’t going to tone down the rhetoric and the left can either continue the spiraling downward or use this as an opportunity to rebrand itself in a way that appeals to non hardcore righties and swing voters.
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I hear you. I agree it’s a problem for the Dems. But it’s not their fault that a plurality of voters last November either wanted an authoritarian or couldn’t recognize one when he stared them in the face. And not calling Trump an authoritarian isn’t going to stop him from acting like one. So it appears the future of our country depends on enough people who voted for Trump recognizing that he’s exactly what the rest of us have been calling him. We now have eight months of evidence he’s that or worse, and he won’t be getting better from here.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Amen to this.

Been saying it for years and it is and always has been my biggest fear of Trump himself. Fear is also the correct word for me. He terrified me from day one and I am more scared now. He scares me because he uses words to manipulate and he doesn't care about the fallout. I know the destructive power of that. He is far from the only one but he is the most dangerous because his following is so large and so willing.

I would crawl over hot fucking lava to have a Mitch McConnell or a Chris Christie or even a sniveling Ted Cruz as POTUS before Trump. Even if they enacted every policy I hated, none of those people threatens to put us where we are now and where we are likely headed.

But Trump? Not only will he allow it, but he will welcome it and shrug when it all crushes down. He is just that guy.
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My fear is post trump. We can weather trump’s rhetoric but the discourse must get better post trump. My hope is the CK shooting is the bottom of the barrel and people will wake up. It has absolutely rocked me.
 
Callatoroy said:
My fear is post trump. We can weather trump’s rhetoric but the discourse must get better post trump. My hope is the CK shooting is the bottom of the barrel and people will wake up. It has absolutely rocked me.
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I truly do respect you for rethinking your position on Trump, but I hope you’ll appreciate it’s tough to take it at face value when you’ve been such a strong Trump defender for months now. We wouldn’t have to weather his rhetoric if you guys hadn’t voted for him in November.
 
It may just be that we have become a majority...or at least a political one...fascist nation.

That pains me. Most of y'all here are good anti-fascists but this is not so for a great many people that we grew up with, perhaps work with, and certainly likely share ancestry with.
 
lawtig02 said:
I truly do respect you for rethinking your position on Trump, but I hope you’ll appreciate it’s tough to take it at face value when you’ve been such a strong Trump defender for months now. We wouldn’t have to weather his rhetoric if you guys hadn’t voted for him in November.
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I certainly am suspicious.
 
lawtig02 said:
I hear you. I agree it’s a problem for the Dems. But it’s not their fault that a plurality of voters last November either wanted an authoritarian or couldn’t recognize one when he stared them in the face. And not calling Trump an authoritarian isn’t going to stop him from acting like one. So it appears the future of our country depends on enough people who voted for Trump recognizing that he’s exactly what the rest of us have been calling him. We now have eight months of evidence he’s that or worse, and he won’t be getting better from here.
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Continuing to do so isn’t going to stop him from anything either. But it will continue to be lost on voters. The left should shift its focus from concentrating on trump to concentrating on reaching voters. Trump will be gone shortly. The right will still be stuck in its current funk. The left has the chance to get out in front with voters before the right ever wakes up. Does it continue with a failed message or find one that resonates.
 
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