Epstein Files | Patel: Trust us

[Geisterfahrer]

Keep your eyes on the prize. Theo Von isn’t the problem, he's the symptom. The real answer isn’t scapegoating him, it’s confronting the broader media ecosystem and building a culture that meets people where they are, both digitally and materially.

Democrats need a strategy rooted in narrative and infrastructure not reactionary finger-pointing.

Bernie going on Theo Von’s podcast proves the point. He didn’t scold or moralize. He showed up, talked like a human being, and reached millions of people, many of whom have never felt spoken to by mainstream politics. And it worked. The clip of Bernie explaining class politics to Von’s audience went viral. People respected it. That’s a roadmap, not a fluke.

This is what liberals still refuse to understand. The way to counter right-wing influence in the Rogansphere isn’t to sneer at it, it’s to compete in it.

Instead, they blame the platform and the audience. They hand-wave away real alienation and insecurity among young working-class men as if it's just a pipeline to fascism, but it’s not. It’s a vacuum, and nature abhors a vacuum. If the left doesn’t fill it with solidarity, community, and material hope, the right will fill it with resentment and fantasy.

Theo Von is still a total dipshit.

 

[Paine]

Theo Von is still a total dipshit.

Look, I’ve listened to him more than probably anyone else on this board. He platforms some outright dangerous people like Candace Owens. Again, I’m just trying to diagnose how we got here. I know you’re not coming for me just wanted to say that.

 

[wmheel1287]

It’s funny: you once messaged me to say I gave you hope for younger generations. Not sure what changed, but somewhere along the way you pivoted from hopeful to hostile.

You say you’re lifting people up, but you talk about young folks like they’re a burden or a lost cause. You dismiss their media, mock their frustrations, and then act offended when they don’t line up behind the institutions that failed them. That’s not guidance, that’s just grievance.

People didn’t stop trusting legacy media or political elites because it was trendy. They stopped because those institutions lied to them, over and over. The response wasn’t stupidity, it was just a survival instinct. You don’t have to like Von or Rogan or anyone else in that space, but writing off millions of people as dumb just because they’re not listening to NPR or reading the Times doesn’t make you right: it makes you out of touch.

If your whole project is to tell people “just be smarter,” don’t be surprised when they stop listening. That’s not mentorship, it’s moralizing. You don’t have to coddle anyone, but if you really want to help, it starts with respect, not resentment.

I do respect everyone. Period. Always have and always will. I treat people kindly and always have a hand out to help. I don't moralize to anyone. I don't engage with such things for that exact reason.

I also have never once mocked the frustrations of young people. I have backed them up and advocated for them. I think young folks have been dealt a severely shitty hand.

I just wish folks like you would stop trying to pin the shortcomings of your own cohort on mine. We have enough of our own flaws to not be saddled with yours. The fact that your generation has fled to pure lies and sensationalism is every bit your own fault just as it is the fault of the Boomers who have largely done the same.

And your downdressing of me here epitomizes the problem....you're more comfortable with someone who SAYS things the way you want them said than with someone who DOES things to help.

 

[Paine]

I do respect everyone. Period. Always have and always will. I treat people kindly and always have a hand out to help. I don't moralize to anyone. I don't engage with such things for that exact reason.

I also have never once mocked the frustrations of young people. I have backed them up and advocated for them. I think young folks have been dealt a severely shitty hand.

I just wish folks like you would stop trying to pin the shortcomings of your own cohort on mine. We have enough of our own flaws to not be saddled with yours. The fact that your generation has fled to pure lies and sensationalism is every bit your own fault just as it is the fault of the Boomers who have largely done the same.

And your downdressing of me here epitomizes the problem....you're more comfortable with someone who SAYS things the way you want them said than with someone who DOES things to help.

You say you respect everyone and don’t moralize, but your tone and language toward younger people, myself included, often contradict that. You repeatedly lump us in with “lazy,” “stupid,” “TikTok crybabies,” and accuse an entire generation of fleeing to lies and sensationalism. That’s not respect, just resignation disguised as realism.

And I’m not pinning my generation’s shortcomings on yours. I’m pointing out that the institutions many liberals still instinctively defend have failed people across the board. Trust wasn’t lost because of podcast bros or influencers, it was lost because the elite consensus, across parties and decades, delivered crisis after crisis, like Iraq, Wall Street, and COVID. That disillusionment spans generations. Pretending that people fled to alternative media just because they’re stupid erases that context.

As for what you do, I genuinely appreciate your work, that’s real. IIRC, you’re an educator. But doing good things doesn’t give you a pass to constantly punch down on the people you're supposedly helping. You once said I gave you hope. I still want to live up to that. But if we’re going to have a shot at rebuilding any kind of trust or solidarity, it has to be based on mutual respect, not just the kind you say you have, but the kind that shows up in how you talk about and to people.

 

[wmheel1287]

You say you respect everyone and don’t moralize, but your tone and language toward younger people, myself included, often contradict that. You repeatedly lump us in with “lazy,” “stupid,” “TikTok crybabies,” and accuse an entire generation of fleeing to lies and sensationalism. That’s not respect, just resignation disguised as realism.

And I’m not pinning my generation’s shortcomings on yours. I’m pointing out that the institutions many liberals still instinctively defend have failed people across the board. Trust wasn’t lost because of podcast bros or influencers, it was lost because the elite consensus, across parties and decades, delivered crisis after crisis, like Iraq, Wall Street, and COVID. That disillusionment spans generations. Pretending that people fled to alternative media just because they’re stupid erases that context.

As for what you do, I genuinely appreciate your work, that’s real. IIRC, you’re an educator. But doing good things doesn’t give you a pass to constantly punch down on the people you're supposedly helping. You once said I gave you hope. I still want to live up to that. But if we’re going to have a shot at rebuilding any kind of trust or solidarity, it has to be based on mutual respect, not just the kind you say you have, but the kind that shows up in how you talk about and to people.

This is the only place I talk about politics or social culture. I do zero engagement in such topics outside of here. My ability to invest time and money in helping people is entirely predicated on not being outspoken politically. My industry is probably 75% MAGA.

 

[Paine]

This is the only place I talk about politics or social culture. I do zero engagement in such topics outside of here. My ability to invest time and money in helping people is entirely predicated on not being outspoken politically. My industry is probably 75% MAGA.

Fair enough. I get that you’re navigating a tightrope in your industry, and I respect that you choose to invest your time and resources into helping others. That matters, and it’s more than most do.

But I also think it’s important to recognize that even in spaces like this one, how we talk about others, especially younger people or those who’ve turned to alternative platforms out of frustration, carries weight. You’ve got every right to be critical, but sometimes it crosses into contempt. That’s what I was responding to.

I don’t think everything happening in alternative media is good or helpful, but I do think it’s a reaction to a deeper credibility crisis that didn’t start with TikTok or podcasts. We’re all trying to find something real in a media and political environment that feels increasingly performative and disconnected from people’s actual lives.

I’m not trying to assign blame to you or your generation. I’m trying to describe a landscape we’re both stuck navigating. If it came off as a “downdressing,” that wasn’t the intent, I just want the frustrations flowing both ways to actually connect and not calcify into finger-pointing.

I consume a ton of alternative media, and I don’t think that makes me dumb or lazy. I approach it critically, like I would any other source. Just because someone listens to Rogan or Von doesn’t mean they’ve shut off their brain, it often means they’re looking for voices that feel human and unfiltered in a world where so much feels packaged and insincere.

I appreciate your honest engagement with me and my arguments.

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

I want you to take a second and really think about the dumb shit you just posted.

The director of the FBI has no business appearing on a podcast to discuss partisan politics and spew propaganda.

It wouldn’t be right under a Democratic administration, and it isn’t right now.

Why not, dumb shit guy? How much of it did you listen to?

 

[ColdBlueSteel]

It’s often dishonest and opinion spun as fact.

How is it dishonest? It’s not scripted or edited or soundbited, no? You get to hear the guy speak and judge for yourself with no middleman.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

Why not?

Might be news to you but the FBI Director is traditionally neutral on politics, which is presumably how you want your top law enforcement officer to be if no one is above the law and the rule of law prevails.

 

[Bigs23]

How is it dishonest? It’s not scripted or edited or soundbited, no? You get to hear the guy speak and judge for yourself with no middleman.

Because what they say is often untrue.

 

[Zoo_View]

I get wanting people to pay attention to reality but it’s unfair to dismiss millions as lazy or stupid for losing trust in the very institutions that failed them repeatedly: Iraq, the housing crisis, the pandemic response. That trust wasn’t broken by podcasts or TikTok. It was broken by real failures at the top.

People left legacy media because it stopped earning their trust, not because it was too responsible. Criticizing them now doesn’t explain why they tuned out, it just misses the root causes.

I want to trust institutions too. It would make everything easier. But trust has to be earned not assumed. If we want better conversations and better outcomes, we need to fix the system that broke that trust instead of blaming those who are trying to navigate a broken media landscape.

You spent decades backing a political project that gutted public trust, empowered bad actors, and paved the way for the exact chaos you're now furious about. It's rich to blame podcasts and young people when the institutions you helped legitimize are the ones that failed.

People aren't turning to alternative media because they’re lazy or stupid, they’re doing it because the establishment, including the one you supported, broke its contract with the public. That frustration didn't come out of nowhere. You helped create it. Maybe sit with that before lecturing everyone else about intelligence or responsibility.

I enjoy and appreciate your posts.

You are leaping to conclusions here and heaping blame on people who don’t deserve it.

Plenty of people wmheel’s age (47) and my age (63) and finesse’s age (67ish) and into their 70’s and ‘80’s have fought long-and-hard to advance freedom, education, healthcare, civil rights, economic growth in poorer areas, and more.

In the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, in North Carolina, Jesse Helms and his Congressional Club, and Helms and Reagan nationally, helped turn Liberal into a pejorative…….this helped some Americans equate Liberal with Marxist. The GOP continues to do this today.

They and others helped promote the idea that not supporting massive defense spending equaled being anti-American.

George McGovern ran as a hardcore Liberal in 1972. He was CRUSHED. Walter Mondale ran as a hardcore Liberal in 1984. He was CRUSHED. Mike Dukakis ran as a technocrat Liberal (Massachusetts Miracle) in 1988. He was crushed. Bill Clinton ran as a centrist……maybe as a neoliberal (whatever that means). Clinton won. Twice. Then we nominated two of the country’s most boring people and lost…….then Obama…..he won twice….then we nominated the third most boring person, Hillary. She lost.

If you can skip through the 2002 elections and see how not being openly in favor of invading Iraq was a virtual political death sentence (see Max Cleland), you aren’t looking.

Iraq is on the GOP. Not enough resources in Afghanistan because we invaded Iraq is on the GOP.

The Dubya tax cuts are on the GOP.

The Great Recession is on the GOP.

The GOP BULLSHIT surrounding Obamacare is on the GOP.

Trump’s 2017 tax cuts are on the GOP.

The Trump Administration’s shitty response to Covid is on the GOP.

That a huge number of Americans Bo-side all this is THEIR fault.

Only ignoramuses and hard-core Leftists blame Center-Left, Center, or Center-Right Democrats (remember, it’s 2025, Center-Right Democrats are not Republicans, not even Never Trump Republicans).

 

[Paine]

I enjoy and appreciate your posts.

You are leaping to conclusions here and heaping blame on people who don’t deserve it.

Plenty of people wmheel’s age (47) and my age (63) and finesse’s age (67ish) and into their 70’s and ‘80’s have fought long-and-hard to advance freedom, education, healthcare, civil rights, economic growth in poorer areas, and more.

In the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, in North Carolina, Jesse Helms and his Congressional Club, and Helms and Reagan nationally, helped turn Liberal into a pejorative…….this helped some Americans equate Liberal with Marxist. The GOP continues to do this today.

They and others helped promote the idea that not supporting massive defense spending equaled being anti-American.

George McGovern ran as a hardcore Liberal in 1972. He was CRUSHED. Walter Mondale ran as a hardcore Liberal in 1984. He was CRUSHED. Mike Dukakis ran as a technocrat Liberal (Massachusetts Miracle) in 1988. He was crushed. Bill Clinton ran as a centrist……maybe as a neoliberal (whatever that means). Clinton won. Twice. Then we nominated two of the country’s most boring people and lost…….then Obama…..he won twice….then we nominated the third most boring person, Hillary. She lost.

If you can skip through the 2002 elections and see how not being openly in favor of invading Iraq was a virtual political death sentence (see Max Cleland), you aren’t looking.

Iraq is on the GOP. Not enough resources in Afghanistan because we invaded Iraq is on the GOP.

The Dubya tax cuts are on the GOP.

The Great Recession is on the GOP.

The GOP BULLSHIT surrounding Obamacare is on the GOP.

Trump’s 2017 tax cuts are on the GOP.

The Trump Administration’s shitty response to Covid is on the GOP.

That a huge number of Americans Bo-side all this is THEIR fault.

Only ignoramuses and hard-core Leftists blame Center-Left, Center, or Center-Right Democrats (remember, it’s 2025, Center-Right Democrats are not Republicans, not even Never Trump Republicans).

I appreciate the thoughtful tone and the history lesson, it’s important context. I don’t disagree that there were real costs for opposing the Iraq War or that the GOP bears major responsibility for many of the disasters of the past few decades. But I think you’re missing my broader point.

This isn’t about denying that older liberals fought for good causes or that right-wing forces have done immense damage. It’s about reckoning with the fact that many establishment Democrats, liberal media outlets, and respected institutions went along with those right-wing projects or failed to mount a meaningful opposition to them when it counted.

Yes, the GOP led the charge into Iraq, but many prominent Democrats voted for it. Yes, Fox poisoned the media ecosystem, but major outlets like the New York Times ran cover stories based on lies. Yes, Reagan and the right demonized the word “liberal,” but Clintonism responded not by defending liberal values but by triangulating and gutting much of what made them matter in the first place.

So when I say trust was broken, I’m not blaming every individual over 40, I’m pointing to systemic failures that were bipartisan, that unfolded under Democratic as well as Republican leadership, and that many legacy institutions helped legitimize. That’s the context in which a lot of younger people have grown up, where “serious people” were often wrong, and where the gatekeepers rarely faced consequences for it.

We can’t just say the GOP did it and leave it at that. If Democrats and liberals want to rebuild trust, they have to do more than win on policy papers, they have to reckon with how they’ve enabled a system that feels rigged to many Americans.

The frustration you’re seeing is not irrational. It’s the residue of disillusionment with institutions that promised too much and delivered too little. That’s not about being hard left, it’s about paying attention to how and why people tune out.

Your posts are always thoughtful and well-reasoned. I appreciate that. I apologize if my posts up to this point have come across as me unfairly casting blame.

 

[WaynetheDrain]

Why not, dumb shit guy? How much of it did you listen to?

I don't listen to Theo Von's or Joe Rogan’s podcast because I still have some brain cells that function. Apparently, this isn't a problem for you.

Pro-tip for the future: Don't mock mass media and CNN in the same post that you applaud a podcaster that deals in misinformation. It makes you look like a fucking clown.

I'll repeat this again for you because you're slow: An FBI director has no business appearing on podcasts, no matter which side of the political spectrum he or she falls on. Period.

 

[Paine]

Another element of the dynamic I’m trying to describe is that after the 2008 financial crash and the failures of the Bush administration, the Republican Party’s image was at a historic low. There was a real opportunity for a long-term political shift. But instead of holding the GOP fully accountable for its role in the crisis, many Democrats framed the Tea Party and later MAGA as fringe elements rather than symptoms of a deeper rot within the party itself.

This gave Republicans room to regroup. It allowed figures like Trump to pose as outsiders rather than inheritors of a decades-long political project that hollowed out institutions, stoked racial resentment, and enriched the elite at the public’s expense. By treating Trumpism as a break from Republican orthodoxy rather than its logical culmination, Democrats helped him appear separate from the toxic GOP brand.

In reality, Trump didn’t hijack the party, he just tapped into what was already there and made it explicit. And in doing so, he rebranded and rehabilitated the GOP for millions of Americans who now see it as the only party willing to fight, even if for all the wrong reasons. The result is a Republican Party more ideologically coherent and energized than it was 15 years ago, while Democrats are still debating whether to challenge the system or manage its decline.

At any rate, that is a bit far afield of this thread, so I’ll leave it at that.

 

[finesse]

I wish I was only 67. I'm 73.

Paine, you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You and I have a very different view of what an expert actually is and you imply it's your whole generation. To me, an expert is someone who is in a profession that has standards of education and certification. They have ethical standards and they have peer reviews and publications where their results are read, judged and criticized. The press and pundits definitely don't qualify. Neither do lawyers, but mainly because what the law is is so subjective. Where have these experts misled you? That you have let other people interpret these things for you and convince you that their spin is actually true when the same press, pundits and politicians have knowingly lied to you for damned near a century puts a lot of onus on your generation.

Saying a plague on both houses and refusing to help when one party has repeatedly tried to drag us in the right direction while the other party is conducting a campaign of lies and subversion is really not a very pragmatic approach. It's a hell of a lot easier to reach what you want when the country is heading in generally the right direction. The left's foot dragging has hurt everyone. Really, what actual policy or candidate do you or have you supported that can win in the south, the west or the midwest? You can't change anything when you can't win.

It wouldn't surprise me in some of my personal ideas aren't more outre than yours when it comes down to it but the country isn't going to support them. Time makes a difference. There have been huge changes in the 73 years I've been alive. I don't want to keep handing any of it back because I ignore the good in the quest for the perfect.

 

[heelinhell]

I, too, am 73yo. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I'm sure you will agree with me that no 73yo is to blame for the mess created by these youngsters.
Alas, if only they would put down their cell phones long enough to listen and benefit from our wisdom...

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Why is our FBI director on Joe Rogan?

Politicians want to get their message out so they go to the media forums that are consumed by the people they want to deliver that message to. Its not unprecedented.

 

[finesse]

Politicians want to get their message out so they go to the media forums that are consumed by the people they want to deliver that message to. Its not unprecedented.

You do understand that FBI directors are not generally politicians and they don't generally have a message. They can't help being political and having a POV but, if they are properly doing their job, they should go out of their way to minimize the influence of both.

 

[donbosco]

@Paine wrote: "Conservative coded podcasters launder disinfo through their perceived authenticity. Part of the solution is for Dems to embrace the left-liberal podcast ecosystem that exists currently. Those podcasts, more often than not, source their material and are reliable narrators."

I've read most of the last two pages and this is the point that interests me most because I teach 18 to 22 year olds. I realize that I don't know enough about their news sources. We do not talk about it enough. My daughter is 19 and is very news savvy but I note that the "big" stories for her do not always coincide with my own or when they do the focus is different. I understand that she follows Mehdi Hasan but what else she/my students are listening to is something that I need to investigate much further. New project.

 

[donbosco]

But as an aside...wonder if a 21st century J. Edgar Hoover would appear on Rogan?