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Epstein Files | Patel: Trust us

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It cannot be said enough times: the Fairness Doctrine or its absence is not at all how we got here. It only applied to broadcast media -- not radio, not cable, and of course not internet had it been around.
You're right that the Fairness Doctrine only applied to broadcast media, not cable or the internet. But to say it had nothing to do with how we got here misses the bigger picture.

Its repeal in 1987 signaled a broader shift in how the government viewed media, from something with civic obligations to just another profit-driven industry.

That deregulation opened the door for partisan talk radio like Limbaugh on radio, which was covered under the Fairness Doctrine before. It set the template for Fox News and eventually the broader infotainment model that dominates today. It’s not about the Fairness Doctrine alone, but about how a series of structural changes hollowed out media’s public function. This was one key part of that shift.
 
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good question...

Also, addressing his diss on incremental change, I have argued that incremental change has allowed Americans to metabolize change...civil rights, gay rights, women's rights

But I would welcome being informed by Paine when left radical change has moved America forward with deep structural analysis
I’m not against incremental change in principle. Sometimes it’s the only path available, but it matters what direction the increments move in and who sets the pace. Too often, incrementalism becomes a euphemism for deferring justice indefinitely, especially when used to defend the status quo rather than challenge it.

As for examples of more radical change: the New Deal wasn’t incremental. It was a sweeping reorganization of American political economy in response to crisis, pushed by labor movements and mass organizing.

Reconstruction after the Civil War was another moment, imperfect and incomplete, but a radical reimagining of citizenship, civil rights, and democracy that went far beyond elite consensus.

Even the Civil Rights Movement had a radical edge. Yes, legal victories were incremental, but they were driven by mass movements making maximalist moral demands, not technocratic policy tweaks. King didn’t march for measured adjustments, he marched for justice now.

The idea that only slow, cautious change is digestible assumes that elites know what the public is ready for, but history shows us people are capable of rising to the occasion when movements give them something worth rising for.
 
And just where did Rush Limbaugh start? That's right, over the free airways of BROADCASTING!
He wasn't on cable. He wasn't streaming over the internet. Hell, Al Gore hadn't even invented the internet yet ;)

The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 played a role in the rise of conservative talk radio, including The Rush Limbaugh Show. Period.

  • Established by the FCC in 1949, the Fairness Doctrine required broadcasters to present both sides of controversial issues of public importance.
  • The idea was that since there were a limited number of broadcast licenses, broadcasters, as trustees of the public airwaves, had an obligation to ensure a diversity of viewpoints.
  • The doctrine didn't require equal time for opposing viewpoints, but rather a reasonable opportunity to present contrasting views.
  • The Fairness Doctrine was repealed by the FCC in 1987.
  • Opponents of the doctrine argued it violated the First Amendment rights of broadcasters by giving the government control over content and chilled debate.
  • The repeal of the doctrine allowed broadcasters to focus solely on popular programming without having to present opposing viewpoints, which facilitated the rise of partisan talk radio.
It can't be said enough: Rush Limbaugh was "allowed" to do his shtick over the free air of AM radio ONLY after the Fairness Doctrine went away.

And after Rush - the fucking flood gates were opened. Sure FOX is cable, and cable and internet aren't "broadcast" over the free airwaves... duh! BUT FOX AND ALL THE SHIT HAPPENED WHEN THE POWERS THAT BE SAW THAT WHAT RUSH WAS DOING CREATED ADVERTISING BUCKS - AND WORSE - AT LEAST HALF OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED TO LAP UP THAT SHIT.

Say what you want, but if the debate is about "when it started" or "how it started" or "who started it" - it was Ronnie fucking Raygun and the repeal of the Fairness doctrine which facilitated Rush... Once Murdoch and whomever else saw the dollar signs and the gullibility of the dumbfuck American populace - the rest was easy pickings. Even Trump figured that one out. He of the long-standing card-holding Democratic voting affiliation.

And to bring this back to the OP - Trump is indeed a pedo, a rapist and in the Epstein files - and NO the magas don't give a two shits about it. And Musk knows this. He just wanted to piss in Donald's face. Period.
 
When I talk about elite consensus, I’m referring to a set of core economic and political beliefs broadly shared among the dominant political, business, and media classes, regardless of party, that shape the framework within which “serious” policy debates happen.

This consensus isn’t about every detail, it’s about the major underlying assumptions that guide how elites think about governance, the economy, and social order.

Some key features of this elite consensus include: a commitment to neoliberal economic policies such as free markets, deregulation, low taxes on capital, and trade liberalization. It includes acceptance of the global capitalist system, supporting globalization, financialization, and multinational corporations as the engines of growth. There is a prioritization of fiscal responsibility, with a strong focus on balanced budgets and debt management, often at the expense of expansive social programs.
Do you really not understand why this tripe is so insulting? It is so tiring when you chalk up every difference of opinion to some sort of corruption at the hands of a shadowy elite -- especially since you are provably wrong for the most part.

1. When I was young, I believed all that leftist political theory. Multinational corporations = bad. Free trade = bad. etc. So I decided to study the matter with an open mind, but an expectation that I would see all the flaws I'd been assured were there. My expectation was not remotely accurate. So I changed my views. Not because I sold out to an elite consensus or aligned myself with the dominant classes -- because that's the truth, as best I can see it.

Thing is: at least I had an excuse for my errant views. At the time, there was real penetration of the American market from East Asia mostly from Japan only. By mid to late 90s, the trade-led economies of East Asia more generally were humming. Meanwhile, the leftist economic policies in Latin American had more or less led to ruination. It should be shocking to think that Cambodia has the same level of economic development as every Central American country save Costa Rica. CAMBODIA! You don't have to hold a brief for Allende -- which I won't -- to note that Chile is now substantially richer than Argentina. While Argentina was busy trying to make all its products itself, Chile started exporting wine and fish to the world.

2. Nowhere in your world view is there any room for truth. I also used to be like that, sort of. I accepted the critiques of positivist epistemology and indeed I still have a soft spot for epistemic deconstructionists like the great philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend. But also, at the time time, science works, right? We are having this conversation because someone invented the transistor, and the integrated circuit, and digital conversions and all the other stuff that makes the internet possible. All the while, there were leftists talking about how science just reflects the views of the dominant class, that the elite had fallen into techno-optimism (contrary to some of your claims, neither techno-optimism nor critiques of it are in any way new -- one need only read Galbraith or D. Bell to know that).

In other words: there was a clash of ideas. The anti-capitalist, anti-globalizing left versus the technocrats. It was not much of a contest, though. While the left was celebrating the great anti-hegemony of revolutionary regimes in Cuba and Nicaragua and elsewhere in Latin America and Africa, the technocrats built the internet. And then the left saw that internet (this was before you were born) and imagined it as the greatest tool of democracy ever invented. There were countless homilies in the pages of the Nation and Dissent and other leftist sources about how the hegemony of the corporate media was about to be broken, that soon everyone would be able to make their voices heard and the authentic populist perspective would be finally revealed.

I kid you not. The left foresaw twitter and thought it was the greatest thing ever. I was horrified by the prospect. I guess this is when I became a "technocrat." I could not see the benefit of letting just anyone have a soap box. It seemed like epistemic suicide. And I used to have this conversation with leftists. I would cite the now-classic Onion article, "Nation Eagerly Awaits Address By Uneducated Forklift Driver on Limbaugh" and ask -- this times a million is what you want? Yes, came the response. Because, I was lectured, once the people can truly speak unfettered, the false prophets like Rush will be driven under.

I don't think we need to debate too much about who was right.

3. So it really pisses me off when people, with the benefit of all that history and natural experiments, return to the same critiques that were so thoroughly debunked. It pisses a lot of people off, which is why Bernie Sanders was such a problem. Bernie, like most leftists, has no theory of political disagreement. Everything is just corruption. If you think markets work better than state industries, you're sold out to the capitalist elites. Whether markets do in fact work better (they do!) is irrelevant because there's no space for intellectuality. As you yourself say, everything is class politics.

Class politics cannot explain the internet. Class politics cannot explain electric vehicles. It cannot explain the apparent conquering of the business cycle (the the last cyclical recession we've had was 2000, and that was mild).

4, So then the leftists come back with the greatest hits: the famine in Ethiopia caused by the IMF, the corruption and depravity of some world bank programs under McNamara, etc. I know all that. So do the economists who work at those institutions. While leftists languish in the shadow of past failures, the IMF and the World Bank were reformed. They don't do that naked Washington Consensus stuff any more (ironic since y'all have oriented your entire critique around an idea that is no longer all that relevant in practice).

It is exhausting, really. Before the advent of social media, which brought out the ZenModes and the right-wing know-nothings, the constant goalpost-moving, circular arguments, bad faith attacks and dubious empirical claims filled the pages of the Nation and nascent left-wing online media.

And the progressive law students? OMG. Kids who thought they were super-smart because they got As in their humanities courses at Cornell or Duke (even though the median GPAs in the humanities at those schools was like 3.8). Then they got to law school and they weren't superstars any more. Did they change their study habits? Get more serious? Open their mind? Nope. The professors were all neoliberals (that was the word at the time but the idea was more or less the same -- remember that the left both-sided in the 2000 election). It became something of a conspiracy.

In particular, there was one professor who was so much of a neoliberal optimist that no progressive student could ever get an A. It wasn't even worth trying, they said. Well, I got an A+ from that professor. Did that change their views? Of course not. Obviously what had happened was that I sold out.

5. It is just as difficult to talk with a committed leftist as a MAGA. There is the same commitment to truth (i.e. none), the same disparagement of experts, the same irrelevant bullshit used to deflect what can't be answered.

6. So after all this, after a lifetime of being told that I was a corrupt sellout to the corporate class because I followed the evidence (note: right-wingers were even more hostile, sensing accurately that I was still progressive in outlook but frustrated that I could speak economics better than they could (law and econ being a very conservative sub-field at the time), I have so little tolerance for the constant implication that mere deviation from the party line made me automatically suspect.

You guys really need a more nuanced theory of knowledge. There has to be a way to formulate your critique without sweeping in authentic knowledge and good faith inquiry. "Multi-national corporations" ain't it. Most people who use that phrase don't really know what a corporation is or does, let alone what it would mean to be "multinational" (this is a bogeyman which, as described in the pages of the Nation, exists nowhere).

There has to be a way to acknowledge that corporate power can be especially problematic in a post-industrial age AND to acknowledge that, without corporations, our economy would be stuck in the 19th century. If corporations had not been invented, we would not be having this conversation -- in part because the internet didn't exist, and in part because we'd both be due back in the factory for our second 9 hour shift following our 15 minutes for lunch. That's right. Corporations are necessary for us to be even having this conversation about how wicked corporate power can be. And I'm also tired of being accused of apology when I point out this unavoidable fact.

The real program for progressive political economy should be to untie that apparent paradox: how can the corporation, the locus of oppression, also be the institution by which billions escaped poverty. I mean, I think I remember a leftist or two who situated the resolution of such paradoxes, or contradictions if you will, at the very heart not only of social theory but of history. Alas, there's a different approach taken when the paradox du jour is more or less created by bad progressive theory.
 
You're right that the Fairness Doctrine only applied to broadcast media, not cable or the internet. But to say it had nothing to do with how we got here misses the bigger picture.

Its repeal in 1987 signaled a broader shift in how the government viewed media, from something with civic obligations to just another profit-driven industry.

That deregulation opened the door for partisan talk radio like Limbaugh on radio, which was covered under the Fairness Doctrine before. It set the template for Fox News and eventually the broader infotainment model that dominates today. It’s not about the Fairness Doctrine alone, but about how a series of structural changes hollowed out media’s public function. This was one key part of that shift.
Imagine for a minute what Bush 43 or Trump would do with the Fairness Doctrine.

The Fairness Doctrine was completely unworkable. That's why it died. Its repeal had nothing at all to do with the shift you describe. It had everything to do with CNN. The Fairness Doctrine could not prevent Fox News. In fact, had it been retained, we probably would have gotten Fox News before we did. The reason Rush got big was there was a huge demand for his particular brand of "political" "commentary." That would have happened regardless of the Fairness Doctrine.
 
And just where did Rush Limbaugh start? That's right, over the free airways of BROADCASTING!
He wasn't on cable. He wasn't streaming over the internet. Hell, Al Gore hadn't even invented the internet yet ;)

The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 played a role in the rise of conservative talk radio, including The Rush Limbaugh Show. Period.

  • Established by the FCC in 1949, the Fairness Doctrine required broadcasters to present both sides of controversial issues of public importance.
  • The idea was that since there were a limited number of broadcast licenses, broadcasters, as trustees of the public airwaves, had an obligation to ensure a diversity of viewpoints.
  • The doctrine didn't require equal time for opposing viewpoints, but rather a reasonable opportunity to present contrasting views.
  • The Fairness Doctrine was repealed by the FCC in 1987.
  • Opponents of the doctrine argued it violated the First Amendment rights of broadcasters by giving the government control over content and chilled debate.
  • The repeal of the doctrine allowed broadcasters to focus solely on popular programming without having to present opposing viewpoints, which facilitated the rise of partisan talk radio.
It can't be said enough: Rush Limbaugh was "allowed" to do his shtick over the free air of AM radio ONLY after the Fairness Doctrine went away.

And after Rush - the fucking flood gates were opened. Sure FOX is cable, and cable and internet aren't "broadcast" over the free airwaves... duh! BUT FOX AND ALL THE SHIT HAPPENED WHEN THE POWERS THAT BE SAW THAT WHAT RUSH WAS DOING CREATED ADVERTISING BUCKS - AND WORSE - AT LEAST HALF OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED TO LAP UP THAT SHIT.

Say what you want, but if the debate is about "when it started" or "how it started" or "who started it" - it was Ronnie fucking Raygun and the repeal of the Fairness doctrine which facilitated Rush... Once Murdoch and whomever else saw the dollar signs and the gullibility of the dumbfuck American populace - the rest was easy pickings. Even Trump figured that one out. He of the long-standing card-holding Democratic voting affiliation.

And to bring this back to the OP - Trump is indeed a pedo, a rapist and in the Epstein files - and NO the magas don't give a two shits about it. And Musk knows this. He just wanted to piss in Donald's face. Period.
But Rush was broadcasting before 1987, on the radio, and some of his worst, most incendiary comments came from that time. Why?

Because policing the Fairness Doctrine was a fucking nightmare. It was hard enough on broadcast TV. On radio, it was not even a thing.

The reason Rush was able to obtain a huge audience was that people had stopped paying attention to AM radio. You know, video killing the radio star and all that. AM radio was ancient; it had poor sound quality; and after FM it had become a medium of niche programs appealing mostly harmlessly to niche audiences.

Ironically, this is an area where elites most dropped the ball because of their elitism, and it rarely gets mentioned. Who was the core Rush Limbaugh audience in the early years? Delivery truck drivers. Repairmen working in shops. Retail clerks -- especially in small businesses or family owned-and-operated. They didn't tune into hear Rush specifically, not at the time. They tuned in because they listened to radio at work.

Educated elites didn't listen to radio at work. They worked in offices, not trucks. So they thought Rush was nothing but a curiosity, a relic, a guy who was making a few bones broadcasting on zombie stations located in underdeveloped areas like the Missouri bootheel. I saw the danger because I worked in a couple of repair shops and saw the reaction. The minute people started calling into Rush saying, "ditto," I realized we had a problem.
 
Note also that Fox News ran a program for years that was perfectly Fairness Doctrine compliant. It was called Hannity and Colmes.

The Fairness Doctrine did not protect us. It would not protect us. Its repeal was not the problem.
 
Do you really not understand why this tripe is so insulting? It is so tiring when you chalk up every difference of opinion to some sort of corruption at the hands of a shadowy elite -- especially since you are provably wrong for the most part.
Here we go...

It is telling that a structural critique of elite consensus gets interpreted as a personal attack. I never said anything about you selling out, and I did not invoke a secret cabal. I described a broad ideological framework shared by political, corporate, and media elites across party lines. If that reads to you as an insult, maybe that says more about how personally you identify with the system than anything about my argument.

I'm going to try my best to deal with your points, and then I'm done.

1. “I used to be a leftist until I studied the evidence.”

This is the classic professional class redemption arc. You believed the radicals, then read a few things, and now you think you see clearly. But your go-to examples ignore key facts. Chile’s success was built through dictatorship and violent repression. Cambodia’s gains reflect low starting points and brutal labor conditions. And the East Asian countries you cite did not follow free-market orthodoxy; they used state planning, capital controls, and industrial policy. What you are presenting as technocratic clarity is just selective evidence filtered through neoliberal assumptions. More importantly, your personal intellectual journey is not a substitute for structural analysis. You keep mistaking biography for argument.

2. “Science works, and leftists deny truth.”

No one is denying that science works. The critique is that science and technology do not exist outside politics. Who funds the research? Who owns the results? Who benefits from the innovation? The internet you credit to technocrats was built with public investment, then handed off to private monopolies. That is not a denial of truth; it is a critique of how power operates.

Your horror at the idea of regular people having a platform says the quiet part out loud. You do not want democratic participation; you want gatekeeping. And somehow you believe that position makes you the rational one.

3. “Bernie and the left have no theory of disagreement, just accusations of corruption.”

We do have a theory of disagreement. It is called material interests. Political views are shaped by class position, institutional incentives, and systems of power. If someone supports tax cuts for the rich, deregulation, and privatized services, I do not assume they are evil. But I also do not pretend their views emerge from a vacuum. They reflect a worldview shaped by elite institutions. You personalize every structural critique, then accuse the left of lacking nuance.

4. “The IMF and World Bank were reformed.”

Superficially, yes. The rhetoric has changed. But the basic priorities of fiscal discipline, deregulation, and privatization still drive their interventions. Countries in crisis are still pushed to cut social programs, liberalize markets, and attract foreign capital. That is the continuity I'm pointing to.

5. “Leftists are like MAGA, anti-truth and anti-expert.”

This is a lazy comparison. The left is not anti-knowledge; it is anti-monopoly of knowledge. We want democratic control of institutions that shape the economy and society. MAGA wants grievance and hierarchy. If you cannot see the difference, it may be because you are more invested in preserving authority rather than in engaging with the content of the critique.

6. “I got A’s. The leftists in law school just didn’t want to work hard.”

Again, this is not political analysis. It is just a personal grudge. Your grades do not prove your worldview. And disagreement with a professor does not mean others were lazy or deluded. Not everything is about you.

7. “Corporations are necessary. The left does not understand that.”

We understand the contradiction just fine. Corporations are central to modern capitalism, and they are also extractive and unaccountable. The goal is not to eliminate corporations overnight. It is to regulate them, democratize them, and ensure they serve public needs instead of just shareholder value. That is called political economy.

What runs through your entire response is a refusal to distinguish between structure and self. You treat critiques of systems as attacks on your personal identity. You turn disagreement into drama. You substitute autobiography for analysis. I am not here for your origin story. I am here to talk about power.
And frankly, it is deeply disrespectful to continually infantilize my arguments. You respond not as if I’m raising good-faith political critiques but as if I’m just confused or naive. That condescension is not only exhausting, it is a form of dismissal that avoids real engagement.

It’s also pretty transparent that you’re still carrying resentment from some argument you had in law school. Someone on the left told you that you sold out, and now every time you encounter a structural critique, you project that entire drama onto the person making it. I’m not that person, and this isn’t about your grades or your career. It’s about power, institutions, and the systems that shape our lives, whether or not you feel personally implicated.

It’s honestly flabbergasting that you’d accuse me of having no commitment to truth. I laid out a historically grounded, structurally coherent critique of elite consensus without attacking you personally. You responded not by engaging the ideas but with a condescending monologue full of emotional projection and personal grievance. You continually collapse structural critiques into personal attacks because you can’t separate disagreement from your own biography. That’s not a commitment to truth either, it’s intellectual narcissism. You don’t have a theory of political disagreement, you have a theory of personal vindication. Don't project your own attitudes surrounding political debate onto me.

I’ve tried to engage seriously with you a lot, but you keep turning these conversations into a re-litigation of your own personal disputes that have nothing to do with me. I’m not going to keep responding to the same recycled pablum just because you’ve mistaken me for your past.
 
Here we go...

It is telling that a structural critique of elite consensus gets interpreted as a personal attack. I never said anything about you selling out, and I did not invoke a secret cabal. I described a broad ideological framework shared by political, corporate, and media elites across party lines. If that reads to you as an insult, maybe that says more about how personally you identify with the system than anything about my argument.
You wrote this:

"On the Democratic side, the emergence of the “abundance agenda” reflects a parallel attempt to reshape elite consensus around techno-optimism, deregulated building, and innovation, while still avoiding a full reckoning with neoliberalism’s failures.

Both of these currents show that elites know the old model is broken, but they’re trying to ensure whatever replaces it still works for them."

If you don't understand how that's a personal attack on those who think the abundance agenda is a good idea, then what should I say? You are calling me an elite, and you're suggesting that my views are a function of being an elite and needing to ensure that the system works for me. That's the problem with leftists. Your default assumption is that all disagreement with you -- despite the fact that the Left has failed over and over again, far more than "neoliberalism" ever did or could -- is explained by suspicious motives is toxic.

I use these examples because they are accessible to people on a message board. You really think that I can't answer your "structural" critiques. Really? How often do I go into an intellectual gun fight with a stalk of broccoli? I don't spout what I don't know. It's that nobody here wants to rehash Moynihan v. SDS or Sartre v. Aron. Or go through an exhaustive discussion of Foucault's theories of power, which I guarantee I can speak to far more effectively than you.
 
It includes acceptance of the global capitalist system, supporting globalization, financialization, and multinational corporations as the engines of growth.
What is financialization?
 
You wrote this:

"On the Democratic side, the emergence of the “abundance agenda” reflects a parallel attempt to reshape elite consensus around techno-optimism, deregulated building, and innovation, while still avoiding a full reckoning with neoliberalism’s failures.

Both of these currents show that elites know the old model is broken, but they’re trying to ensure whatever replaces it still works for them."

If you don't understand how that's a personal attack on those who think the abundance agenda is a good idea, then what should I say? You are calling me an elite, and you're suggesting that my views are a function of being an elite and needing to ensure that the system works for me. That's the problem with leftists. Your default assumption is that all disagreement with you -- despite the fact that the Left has failed over and over again, far more than "neoliberalism" ever did or could -- is explained by suspicious motives is toxic.

I use these examples because they are accessible to people on a message board. You really think that I can't answer your "structural" critiques. Really? How often do I go into an intellectual gun fight with a stalk of broccoli? I don't spout what I don't know. It's that nobody here wants to rehash Moynihan v. SDS or Sartre v. Aron. Or go through an exhaustive discussion of Foucault's theories of power, which I guarantee I can speak to far more effectively than you.
You’re reading a personal attack into an analysis of political currents and elite interests that shape policy debates broadly, not at any one individual. When I say elites try to preserve systems that work for them, I mean structural dynamics, not you personally. That you interpret it as a direct accusation says more about your own defensiveness than my argument.

Critiquing the “abundance agenda” or neoliberalism is about examining how power and resources get allocated, not about assigning bad faith motives to every individual who holds those views. It’s disappointing that you reduce complex structural critiques to personal insults. That’s exactly the kind of deflection I’m pushing back against in the post you've responded to.

As for the intellectual history and theory you mention, I’m always open to a serious, grounded discussion. Any suggestion otherwise is demonstrably false based on my continued engagement with people on this board. But it needs to start from a place of mutual respect and engagement with evidence, not thinly veiled ad hominem attacks against leftists. If you’re so well-versed then you should easily be able to explain how these theoretical debates actually relate to the very real material conditions and power structures at play today. Instead, you resort to broad attacks against leftists who have personally slighted you in some way as if that's at all relevant. I can guarantee no one on the board cares about who said what to you in law school.

It’s incredibly insulting to compare seriously disputing my structural critiques to arguing with a “stalk of broccoli.” That kind of dismissive language doesn’t advance any discussion, but it does reveal a lack of respect for genuine debate and differing perspectives. If you want to debate ideas, let’s keep it about ideas. Otherwise, I’m done spinning wheels here.
 
1. “I used to be a leftist until I studied the evidence.”

This is the classic professional class redemption arc. You believed the radicals, then read a few things, and now you think you see clearly. But your go-to examples ignore key facts. Chile’s success was built through dictatorship and violent repression. Cambodia’s gains reflect low starting points and brutal labor conditions. And the East Asian countries you cite did not follow free-market orthodoxy; they used state planning, capital controls, and industrial policy. What you are presenting as technocratic clarity is just selective evidence filtered through neoliberal assumptions. More importantly, your personal intellectual journey is not a substitute for structural analysis. You keep mistaking biography for argument.

2. “Science works, and leftists deny truth.”

No one is denying that science works. The critique is that science and technology do not exist outside politics. Who funds the research? Who owns the results? Who benefits from the innovation? The internet you credit to technocrats was built with public investment, then handed off to private monopolies. That is not a denial of truth; it is a critique of how power operates.

Your horror at the idea of regular people having a platform says the quiet part out loud. You do not want democratic participation; you want gatekeeping. And somehow you believe that position makes you the rational one.

3. “Bernie and the left have no theory of disagreement, just accusations of corruption.”

We do have a theory of disagreement. It is called material interests. Political views are shaped by class position, institutional incentives, and systems of power. If someone supports tax cuts for the rich, deregulation, and privatized services, I do not assume they are evil. But I also do not pretend their views emerge from a vacuum. They reflect a worldview shaped by elite institutions. You personalize every structural critique, then accuse the left of lacking nuance.

4. “The IMF and World Bank were reformed.”

Superficially, yes. The rhetoric has changed. But the basic priorities of fiscal discipline, deregulation, and privatization still drive their interventions. Countries in crisis are still pushed to cut social programs, liberalize markets, and attract foreign capital. That is the continuity I'm pointing to.

7. “Corporations are necessary. The left does not understand that.”

We understand the contradiction just fine. Corporations are central to modern capitalism, and they are also extractive and unaccountable. The goal is not to eliminate corporations overnight. It is to regulate them, democratize them, and ensure they serve public needs instead of just shareholder value. That is called political economy.

What runs through your entire response is a refusal to distinguish between structure and self. You treat critiques of systems as attacks on your personal identity. You turn disagreement into drama. You substitute autobiography for analysis. I am not here for your origin story. I am here to talk about power.
And frankly, it is deeply disrespectful to continually infantilize my arguments. You respond not as if I’m raising good-faith political critiques but as if I’m just confused or naive. That condescension is not only exhausting, it is a form of dismissal that avoids real engagement.

It’s honestly flabbergasting that you’d accuse me of having no commitment to truth. I laid out a historically grounded, structurally coherent critique of elite consensus without attacking you personally. You responded not by engaging the ideas but with a condescending monologue full of emotional projection and personal grievance. You continually collapse structural critiques into personal attacks because you can’t separate disagreement from your own biography. That’s not a commitment to truth either, it’s intellectual narcissism. You don’t have a theory of political disagreement, you have a theory of personal vindication. Don't project your own attitudes surrounding political debate onto me.

I’ve tried to engage seriously with you a lot, but you keep turning these conversations into a re-litigation of your own personal disputes that have nothing to do with me. I’m not going to keep responding to the same recycled pablum just because you’ve mistaken me for your past.
1. I do want gatekeeping. It was maybe something of a reasonable argument in the 1990s to suggest that gatekeeping was anti-democratic.

In an era where the president of the United States gets ideas from a twitter personality known as catturd, one would think gatekeeping would a better reputation. We didn't get true fascism until the gates completely fell. Because it turns out that giving microphones to ignorant, uneducated, hateful people doesn't serve the ends of justice or truth. It just floods the zone with shit.

Those are the options in the modern world: gatekeeping or flood the zone with shit. Which side are you on?

2. "Corporations are central to modern capitalism, and they are also extractive and unaccountable. The goal is not to eliminate corporations overnight. It is to regulate them, democratize them, and ensure they serve public needs instead of just shareholder value. That is called political economy."

This is a lot of bullshit, but what do I know, having taught corporate law for a decade. You can't fucking democratize a corporation. The whole purpose of a corporation is not to be democratized. It isn't as if this "democratize the corporations" sentiment hasn't been tried. It was extensively tried, particularly in India and the Indians abandoned it as unworkable.

Here are a few things for you to chew on:

A. The genius of the corporation is the separation of ownership and control. It means that capital can be amassed and deployed to good uses, without interference from people who don't know what they are talking about. You want a doctor or a lawyer to finance a steel mill with their capital. You do not want the doctor or lawyer trying to tell the steel mill how to operate. In fact, that system of public control of corporations exists nowhere because it doesn't work.

B. One of the best ways for a corporation to be corrupt is to have a dual mandate. You have no idea how many times corporations do horrible things; they get sued by their investors, who don't want to do horrible things; and the corporation hides behind the supposed effects for stakeholders.

The reality is that the famous Gordon Gekko speech was, ironically enough, mostly correct. Gordon Gekko started his speech by recounting the tremendous amount of bureaucratic overhead consuming the firm's resources. As he said, there are thirty some vice presidents of the company up on stage right now. Those vice presidents were well paid and not productive. They didn't give a fuck about labor, but they would hide behind it when it helped them preserve their jobs. They didn't give a fuck about the community, but they would give money to the arts and say that they waste all this money because they are reaching out to the community.

C. How exactly do you think corporations should serve public needs? Who gets to determine what is a corporate need? The fact is that companies can be charitable if they want. They can serve public needs if they so choose. For small, local companies, that can work. But if was a good idea to implement across the board, don't you think someone would have done it?

3. Material interests are not a theory of disagreement. In fact, it's quite the opposite. You're saying that genuine disagreement doesn't exist because everything is material interests. I'm a bit baffled as to why you make such a grievous error. I mean, this is not difficult.

4. There was, in fact, one leftist who really pissed me off. Who angers me even to this day. His name is Ralph Nader, and he is more to blame for our current predicament than the Fairness Doctrine ever could have been. But you know, I can't separate argument from self, even though nobody talks abstractly as much as I do.

5. "Superficially, yes. The rhetoric has changed. But the basic priorities of fiscal discipline, deregulation, and privatization still drive their interventions. Countries in crisis are still pushed to cut social programs, liberalize markets, and attract foreign capital. That is the continuity I'm pointing to."

This is not a conspiracy. It's necessity. A country in crisis doesn't have enough capital by definition, which is why it is defaulting on its debt. Attracting foreign capital is the only way out, again by definition. The countries that do attract foreign capital -- like Chile -- can stabilize and then grow more actually liberal over time -- as in Chile. Here are some countries that did not restructure their economies to attract that capital: Zimbabwe, Bolivia, North Korea (duh), Burma/Myanmar, etc. Did you know that every country in SE Asia is considerably richer than Myanmar? Every single one, even Cambodia. Hmm, maybe foreign capital isn't so bad.
 
What is financialization?
Financialization refers to the growing dominance of financial markets, institutions, and motives in the economy and society. It means that profit-making increasingly comes from financial activities like trading stocks, bonds, derivatives, and other financial instruments rather than from producing goods and services or investing in productive business ventures.

This shift has several consequences: it changes how companies behave, often prioritizing short-term gains for shareholders over long-term investment in workers, innovation, or infrastructure. It also shapes how governments and policies operate, emphasizing credit expansion, debt markets, and asset bubbles.

Financialization tends to concentrate wealth and power in the hands of investors, bankers, and financial elites, while ordinary workers and communities face stagnating wages and precarious economic conditions.

In short, financialization means the economy is increasingly run by and for the benefit of the finance sector rather than the real economy of goods, services, and labor.
 
Critiquing the “abundance agenda” or neoliberalism is about examining how power and resources get allocated, not about assigning bad faith motives to every individual who holds those views.
I am very far from the only person who thinks y'all conflate these two things on the regular. In fact, this is one of the reasons why people find leftists insufferable. And it's a common tendency on the left. It's why I stopped subscribing to the Nation. It was a compendium of bad faith attacks about irrelevant things.

For instance: to say that Chile fared way better economically than Argentina is a demonstration that export led growth is vastly superior to import substitution. Pointing out that fact doesn't excuse Pinochet. It has nothing to do with him, except for a knee-jerk reaction that everything associated with Chile must be bad. I don't credit Pinochet for anything. And there's really no way of determining what would have happened under Allende. The two biggest booms for the Chilean economy were: a) the rise of California wines, which opened the door for wines from around the world because actually European wines were not so much better; and b) the reduced cost and greater effectiveness of refrigerated transport, which allowed Chile to export seafood all over the globe. Pinochet didn't do that.

At the same time, there are other places in South America that could produce wine. Why don't they? Because they have just never quite come to terms with export led growth.
 
But Rush was broadcasting before 1987, on the radio, and some of his worst, most incendiary comments came from that time. Why?

Because policing the Fairness Doctrine was a fucking nightmare. It was hard enough on broadcast TV. On radio, it was not even a thing.

The reason Rush was able to obtain a huge audience was that people had stopped paying attention to AM radio. You know, video killing the radio star and all that. AM radio was ancient; it had poor sound quality; and after FM it had become a medium of niche programs appealing mostly harmlessly to niche audiences.

Ironically, this is an area where elites most dropped the ball because of their elitism, and it rarely gets mentioned. Who was the core Rush Limbaugh audience in the early years? Delivery truck drivers. Repairmen working in shops. Retail clerks -- especially in small businesses or family owned-and-operated. They didn't tune into hear Rush specifically, not at the time. They tuned in because they listened to radio at work.

Educated elites didn't listen to radio at work. They worked in offices, not trucks. So they thought Rush was nothing but a curiosity, a relic, a guy who was making a few bones broadcasting on zombie stations located in underdeveloped areas like the Missouri bootheel. I saw the danger because I worked in a couple of repair shops and saw the reaction. The minute people started calling into Rush saying, "ditto," I realized we had a problem.
Rush was not syndicated and broadcast NATIONALLY until 1988. Why is that? Before 1988, he was a bullshit 2 bit talk radio jock type out of Sacramento. NOBODY had heard of Rush outside of NoCal. Before that, he worked for a Kansas City radio and was FIRED after only 1 year.

In 1988, shortly after the Fairness Doctrine was repealed - lo, and behold, Rush is syndicated NATIONALLY. It's all well-documented. Once that happened, and broadcast radio (AM or otherwise) didn't have to produce both views (L and R), the right-wing radio talking heads phenomenon took root. The rest is history.

No amount of trying to equivocate or re-write that history holds water.
 
This shift has several consequences: it changes how companies behave, often prioritizing short-term gains for shareholders over long-term investment in workers, innovation, or infrastructure.
The irony here is that this criticism was largely concocted by Martin Lipton, one of the greatest corporate lawyers ever. Wachtell Lipton famously only represented (and this is not 100% true these days but close) the executives who run companies. In the annals of corporate law, there are a lot of cases with captions of the form [union name] v. [corporate name], because labor union pension funds would often sue executives. Martin Lipton was never once on the side of the unions.

I'm not saying this view is wrong. Far from it. There's evidence going both ways. Most of the research on both sides is polemical, and there is still a current of old 1980s personal grievances involved in these disputes. It's hard to sort wheat from chaff there.

It's just ironic that you're citing a critique of financialization that was invented by the ruling class (Martin Lipton being absolutely 100% an unrepentant and occasionally unethical member of the ruling class). Note: I didn't say invented. This particular criticism has been around for a long time, but Marty mainstreamed it and financed a lot of the research justifying it.
 
Rush was not syndicated and broadcast NATIONALLY until 1988. Why is that? Before 1988, he was a bullshit 2 bit talk radio jock type out of Sacramento. NOBODY had heard of Rush outside of NoCal. Before that, he worked for a Kansas City radio and was FIRED after only 1 year.

In 1988, shortly after the Fairness Doctrine was repealed - lo, and behold, Rush is syndicated NATIONALLY. It's all well-documented. Once that happened, and broadcast radio (AM or otherwise) didn't have to produce both views (L and R), the right-wing radio talking heads phenomenon took root. The rest is history.

No amount of trying to equivocate or re-write that history holds water.
Post hoc fallacy.

IIRC -- I'm not 100% on this -- call-in shows satisfied the Fairness Doctrine because the audience participation was deemed to be a contrary point of view. So it wasn't the Fairness Doctrine holding him back. I'd say the reason ABC news got interested in syndicating him was that in 1988, I'm sure you recall, liberal was a four letter word. Trolling the libs was a thing back then too, and Rush did it best (if one can use that term to describe him).

We can agree to disagree on this if you'd like, but I stand by my analysis.
 
1. I do want gatekeeping. It was maybe something of a reasonable argument in the 1990s to suggest that gatekeeping was anti-democratic.

In an era where the president of the United States gets ideas from a twitter personality known as catturd, one would think gatekeeping would a better reputation. We didn't get true fascism until the gates completely fell. Because it turns out that giving microphones to ignorant, uneducated, hateful people doesn't serve the ends of justice or truth. It just floods the zone with shit.

Those are the options in the modern world: gatekeeping or flood the zone with shit. Which side are you on?

2. "Corporations are central to modern capitalism, and they are also extractive and unaccountable. The goal is not to eliminate corporations overnight. It is to regulate them, democratize them, and ensure they serve public needs instead of just shareholder value. That is called political economy."

This is a lot of bullshit, but what do I know, having taught corporate law for a decade. You can't fucking democratize a corporation. The whole purpose of a corporation is not to be democratized. It isn't as if this "democratize the corporations" sentiment hasn't been tried. It was extensively tried, particularly in India and the Indians abandoned it as unworkable.

3. Material interests are not a theory of disagreement. In fact, it's quite the opposite. You're saying that genuine disagreement doesn't exist because everything is material interests. I'm a bit baffled as to why you make such a grievous error. I mean, this is not difficult.

4. There was, in fact, one leftist who really pissed me off. Who angers me even to this day. His name is Ralph Nader, and he is more to blame for our current predicament than the Fairness Doctrine ever could have been. But you know, I can't separate argument from self, even though nobody talks abstractly as much as I do.

5. "Superficially, yes. The rhetoric has changed. But the basic priorities of fiscal discipline, deregulation, and privatization still drive their interventions. Countries in crisis are still pushed to cut social programs, liberalize markets, and attract foreign capital. That is the continuity I'm pointing to."

This is not a conspiracy. It's necessity. A country in crisis doesn't have enough capital by definition, which is why it is defaulting on its debt. Attracting foreign capital is the only way out, again by definition. The countries that do attract foreign capital -- like Chile -- can stabilize and then grow more actually liberal over time -- as in Chile. Here are some countries that did not restructure their economies to attract that capital: Zimbabwe, Bolivia, North Korea (duh), Burma/Myanmar, etc. Did you know that every country in SE Asia is considerably richer than Myanmar? Every single one, even Cambodia. Hmm, maybe foreign capital isn't so bad.
1. If the gates have fallen, it's because the people who were supposed to be standing at them failed so spectacularly that the public stopped listening. You can sneer at “catturd” all you want, but that doesn’t explain why decades of elite gatekeeping gave us Iraq, the financial crisis, mass incarceration, and historic inequality. The “flooding of the zone with shit” didn’t happen in a vacuum, it happened after a generation of gatekeepers used their position to protect a broken status quo. People lost faith not in expertise itself, but in the institutions that dressed up self-interest and ideology as neutral expertise. You want a better informed public? Start by rebuilding trust through accountability, not censorship.

2. You say democratizing corporations is “bullshit,” but this just reflects how narrow your framework is. Nobody is suggesting that a Fortune 500 company becomes a town hall overnight. But there are concrete proposals and historical models, from worker co-ops to codetermination to public ownership, that challenge the current dogma of shareholder supremacy. And yes, India experimented with forms of industrial democracy and faced challenges, but that doesn’t discredit the concept any more than the 2008 crash discredits capitalism. You’re arguing from a place of professional habituation: corporate law, as it stands, is your map, so anything outside of it looks like fantasy. But the point of politics is to redraw the map.

3. You're misunderstanding what a materialist analysis is actually saying. It’s not that genuine disagreement doesn’t exist. It’s that our ideas, values, and political positions don’t emerge in a vacuum. They are shaped, in part, by our material conditions: our class position, economic interests, and relationship to power. That doesn’t erase sincerity or intellect, it contextualizes them. People often sincerely believe things that happen to align with their position in a hierarchy. That’s not a moral judgment, it’s how ideology operates. What’s baffling is how someone trained in law, a field that constantly grapples with motive, power, and incentive, acts like this is some alien concept. Material interests aren’t a reduction of all disagreement, but they are a key lens for understanding why some ideas flourish and others are pushed to the margins. That’s not conspiracy.

4. You’re still mad at Ralph Nader? Twenty-five years later? In 2024, the Democrats ran one of the weakest campaigns in modern history, and your ire is still directed at the one guy who dared to criticize the corporate capture of both parties. Nader didn’t steal your vote. If anything, he revealed that the center-left had no plan for a post-industrial economy except “trust us.” If the system is so fragile that a third-party candidate pulling single digits can bring it down, the problem is the system, not the guy pointing at it.

5. You're treating IMF-style restructuring as if it’s gravity: inevitable, neutral, and universal. It’s not. It’s a political project that reflects a specific vision of development and global order. Countries in crisis often have few choices precisely because institutions like the IMF only offer one model: open up markets, cut public spending, attract capital. That isn’t neutral policy. Yes, Chile became an export powerhouse, but at what cost? Labor rights were crushed, inequality soared, and democracy was suspended for nearly two decades. The idea that other countries “just haven’t come to terms” with export-led growth ignores the political resistance such models generate when people refuse to be sacrificed on the altar of investor confidence. There is nothing apolitical about how foreign capital moves. It moves toward exploitation, deregulation, and regimes willing to discipline labor.
 
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It’s incredibly insulting to compare seriously disputing my structural critiques to arguing with a “stalk of broccoli.” That kind of dismissive language doesn’t advance any discussion,
Now who's personalizing? I didn't say your critiques were a stalk of broccoli. I said that I wouldn't bring such a non-weapon to an intellectual gun fight. I don't spout off opinions that are backed by nothing. I've read deeply in leftist philosophy, probably to an extent you don't realize (I do have a masters degree in intellectual history). Moreover, I still agree with some of it. I think Marcuse is more relevant than ever. Same with Adorno. I always liked Adorno and I defended him back in the 90s when the idea of the "authoritarian personality" became widely mocked. Tables have turned now.

I just happen to know that free trade is a good thing. If you don't care about statistics, ask yourself why there are no tariffs between towns, or between states, or even regions (except in Canada, apparently, but that is likely being changed). What is different about buying paper from a mill in WA or BC? I would argue every single critique you can apply there also applies to locating an auto plant in Alabama or South Carolina instead of Michigan or New York.
 
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