Epstein Files | WSJ releases 50th bday letter from Trump to Epstein

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ZenMode said:
That was acknowledged in the excerpt I posted from the Mueller report. Do you agree that a willingness to receive help isn't the same thing as colluding/conspiring?

Correct. There were two parts to the Mueller Report. One dealt with colluding/conspiring and one dealt with obstruction. While Mueller did NOT establish that Trump colluded, he DID seem to lay the groundwork for obstruction.

Obstruction is not collusion.

As I mentioned above, Mueller apparently found more than enough to lay the groundwork for indictment for obstruction, but not enough for collusion.

That being the case, and knowing that the government knows more than ANY of us as it relates to collusion, why would your opinion be that Trump colluded.

Note: Collusion is not a legal reference, but I'm tired of typing collude/conspire, so assume that "collude" is a reference to "conspire".
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:ROFLMAO: Zen doing the weave again
 
Igs149 said:
I’ll turn back to Epstein after this. But think this battle between Zen and other posters is a bit silly.

Collusion itself was (in some ways) always silly. One, because it gave Trump probably more credit than he deserved (in terms of both planning and execution). But also because it wasn’t even a cognizable legal standard in this context. Collusion (even if it happened) was not a crime except perhaps, in the eye of some bright and creative legal minds, under a very broad reading of campaign finance laws.

If Collusion was genuinely a crime unto itself, the Trump Tower meeting where the highest echelons of the Trump campaign met with a Russian under the auspices she was delivering damaging information on Hillary direct from the Kremlin was probably criminal (as conspiracy to collude) even if (according to those involved FWIW) it was the Trump campaign being bamboozled. Which arguably makes them look not only totally corrupt but also completely inept.

Trying and failing to collude isn’t really the defense I’d cling to.

That said, if people want to criticize the media focus and narrative, there certainly is some room to be critical.

Now back to this Epstein thing…
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just a brief reply so we can get back to Epstein...

Mueller's mandate was never about investigating whether there was collusion( there was ). His mandate was to investigate whether a criminal conspiracy had occurred. He said he had insufficient evidence not no evidence to establish a criminal conspiracy due in part to Trump's obstruction of justice.

now back to Epstein
 
ChileG said:
It really isn’t too far of a bridge to go from intentionally walking in on underaged girls to catch them naked and then bragging about it on the radio to actually wanting to have sex with underaged girls.
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Right! You said in a much more concise way what I've been trying to say for a week now on this thread. It is dumbfounding to me that anyone doesn't see that as an enormous red flag. I suspect that our board Trumpers DO recognize it is a red flag, and would already be on the warpath if it were a Democratic president, but are too far dug on on their Trump support to turn back now.

But yes, for all of us with multiple functioning brain cells, the fact that a man who was (1) BFF's with a notorious child sex trafficker, (2) known to spend time with said known child sex trafficker on a private plane and at private parties, (3) mused about having sex with his own teenage daughter, (4) bragged about walking in on naked teenage girls because he could, and (5) has already been held civilly liable for sexual assault, makes it very, very clear that there is at least a whole lot of smoke that should be investigated to see whether there is fire. Can't fathom anyone thinking otherwise.
 
ZenMode said:
Which is fine. In doing so, you aren't aligning your beliefs/opinion with the best available information.

I bet your opinion would align with the Mueller Report if it said he did conspire.

I also believe your unwillingness to adjust your opinion is due to brainwashing at the hands of liberal media and liberal politicians. They (Democrats and liberal media) ran hard with the Russian collusion story for years, treating it as though it was fact. Remember Schiff's smoking gun that was going to be released aaaaaany day now?

Even after the Mueller Report came out and specifically said "could not establish...", they still ran with it and convinced a lot of people that they know more than the federal government.
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Except your theory about my brainwashing fails because I consume almost zero media. I have no idea what you're even referring to regarding Schiff. I do know people though and I KNOW Donald Trump. I've had a business partner just like him. Those people dont consider anything in life successful unless they did it dirty or got over on someone. For every 1 thing we know that Trump has done, there are 50 we will never know.
 
ChileG said:
Need to add in the part about not being able to establish due to the Trump administration committing 10 illegal acts of Obstruction of Justice, I think. If we want to be fair.
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It's been a long time since I looked at the list. I remember thinking that a couple appeared to be a big deal, as it relates to determining collusion, while others didn't. I also remember being somewhat surprised at the number of interactions between the Trump campaign and Russia. Given the leverage/technology/power, etc of the federal government, I believe they probably have a pretty clear picture of the situation to make an informed decision on whether or not collusion occurred.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Except your theory about my brainwashing fails because I consume almost zero media. I have no idea what you're even referring to regarding Schiff. I do know people though and I KNOW Donald Trump. I've had a business partner just like him. Those people dont consider anything in life successful unless they did it dirty or got over on someone. For every 1 thing we know that Trump has done, there are 50 we will never know.
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Fair enough. You may not be an example, but the reaction here leads me to believe that there are some who have been "brainwashed".
 
CFordUNC said:
Right! You said in a much more concise way what I've been trying to say for a week now on this thread. It is dumbfounding to me that anyone doesn't see that as an enormous red flag. I suspect that our board Trumpers DO recognize it is a red flag, and would already be on the warpath if it were a Democratic president, but are too far dug on on their Trump support to turn back now.

But yes, for all of us with multiple functioning brain cells, the fact that a man who was (1) BFF's with a notorious child sex trafficker, (2) known to spend time with said known child sex trafficker on a private plane and at private parties, (3) mused about having sex with his own teenage daughter, (4) bragged about walking in on naked teenage girls because he could, and (5) has already been held civilly liable for sexual assault, makes it very, very clear that there is at least a whole lot of smoke that should be investigated to see whether there is fire. Can't fathom anyone thinking otherwise.
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This reminds me of a scene from "All The President's Men "

Bernstein is ready to go with a story. Woodruff wants concrete proof not just the evidence they have...

Bernstein counters : I wake up in the morning walk out of my house and see pools of water in the street and water on my my plants and shrubs. I don't know for a fact that it rained last night but it is a reasonable inference to say it rained last night

This is my recollection of the scene, not a transcript

That's where I am with this. I do not know for a fact that Trump had sex with teenage girls, but based upon the evidence we have, it is not an unreasonable inference to draw.
 
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ChileG said:
It really isn’t too far of a bridge to go from intentionally walking in on underaged girls to catch them naked and then bragging about it on the radio to actually wanting to have sex with underaged girls.
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My daughter was in competitive dance for several years, which meant that we traveled a couple times a year to competitions.

My wife, as most moms did, handled 99% of everything related to dance. I just showed up and clapped.

On the road, the dancers from our team, of which there were over 100, generally waited together in a room until it was their turn to perform. That waiting room was NOT the changing room where they changed costumes between dances, so it wasn't uncommon for parents to be in that room.

Apparently that room arrangement was not always the case. Sometimes the room was for changing AND waiting. This was something I didn't know.

So, there was one local event that my wife couldn't attend. She dropped our daughter off with her hair and make-up done, costumes in hand and left. Apparently she forgot some part of one of her costumes, so she frantically called me to stop by our house to get that missing item and bring it to her before the competition started.

I get the missing item, walk onto the campus and, after wandering around for a few minutes, trying to find where our team was, I ask someone who pointed me in the right direction. I find the room, open the door and just stroll in like I belong there. For reasons that should be obvious, I yell "Oh God!!", spun around, eyes covered, ran into the door jamb and felt my back outside.
 
heelinhell said:
This reminds me of a scene from "All The President's Men "

Bernstein is ready to go with a story. Woodruff wants concrete proof not just the evidence they have...

Bernstein counters : I wake up in the morning walk out of my house and see pools of water in the street and water on my my plants and shrubs. I don't know for a fact that it rained last night but it is a reasonable inference to say it rained last night

This is my recollection of the scene, not a transcript

That's where I am with this. I do not know for a fact that Trump had sex with teenage girls, but based upon the evidence we have, it is not an unreasonable inference to draw.
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I'll repeat what I said to callatoroy several days ago. Are the odds plus or minus 50% that Trump, while an adult, has had sex with underage girls?

The fact one has to think for more than a second about that question says it all.

If there is a 0.00001% chance any person would have to answer "yes" to that question, he or she should be categorically disqualified from serving in any position of public responsibility. That MAGA has to think about whether it's plus or minus 50% is so far beyond the realm of anything resembling conventional morality that you just have to put them in a different deplorable category.
 
ZenMode said:
My daughter was in competitive dance for several years, which meant that we traveled a couple times a year to competitions.

My wife, as most moms did, handled 99% of everything related to dance. I just showed up and clapped.

On the road, the dancers from our team, of which there were over 100, generally waited together in a room until it was their turn to perform. That waiting room was NOT the changing room where they changed costumes between dances, so it wasn't uncommon for parents to be in that room.

Apparently that room arrangement was not always the case. Sometimes the room was for changing AND waiting. This was something I didn't know.

So, there was one local event that my wife couldn't attend. She dropped our daughter off with her hair and make-up done, costumes in hand and left. Apparently she forgot some part of one of her costumes, so she frantically called me to stop by our house to get that missing item and bring it to her before the competition started.

I get the missing item, walk onto the campus and, after wandering around for a few minutes, trying to find where our team was, I ask someone who pointed me in the right direction. I find the room, open the door and just stroll in like I belong there. For reasons that should be obvious, I yell "Oh God!!", spun around, eyes covered, ran into the door jamb and felt my back outside.
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Right. Any of us dads of girls can relate to this. And it's what makes the Trump comments so unbelievably incomprehensible.
 
ZenMode said:
My daughter was in competitive dance for several years, which meant that we traveled a couple times a year to competitions.

My wife, as most moms did, handled 99% of everything related to dance. I just showed up and clapped.

On the road, the dancers from our team, of which there were over 100, generally waited together in a room until it was their turn to perform. That waiting room was NOT the changing room where they changed costumes between dances, so it wasn't uncommon for parents to be in that room.

Apparently that room arrangement was not always the case. Sometimes the room was for changing AND waiting. This was something I didn't know.

So, there was one local event that my wife couldn't attend. She dropped our daughter off with her hair and make-up done, costumes in hand and left. Apparently she forgot some part of one of her costumes, so she frantically called me to stop by our house to get that missing item and bring it to her before the competition started.

I get the missing item, walk onto the campus and, after wandering around for a few minutes, trying to find where our team was, I ask someone who pointed me in the right direction. I find the room, open the door and just stroll in like I belong there. For reasons that should be obvious, I yell "Oh God!!", spun around, eyes covered, ran into the door jamb and felt my back outside.
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Respectfully, what is your point?
 
ZenMode said:
My daughter was in competitive dance for several years, which meant that we traveled a couple times a year to competitions.

My wife, as most moms did, handled 99% of everything related to dance. I just showed up and clapped.

On the road, the dancers from our team, of which there were over 100, generally waited together in a room until it was their turn to perform. That waiting room was NOT the changing room where they changed costumes between dances, so it wasn't uncommon for parents to be in that room.

Apparently that room arrangement was not always the case. Sometimes the room was for changing AND waiting. This was something I didn't know.

So, there was one local event that my wife couldn't attend. She dropped our daughter off with her hair and make-up done, costumes in hand and left. Apparently she forgot some part of one of her costumes, so she frantically called me to stop by our house to get that missing item and bring it to her before the competition started.

I get the missing item, walk onto the campus and, after wandering around for a few minutes, trying to find where our team was, I ask someone who pointed me in the right direction. I find the room, open the door and just stroll in like I belong there. For reasons that should be obvious, I yell "Oh God!!", spun around, eyes covered, ran into the door jamb and felt my back outside.
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I have no problem imagining this is true. I also have no problem imagining that you'd take a much less charitable view of an older man doing what you did except not having a daughter in the competition and repeating the action many times over the course of many years.
 
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