Everything wrong with the "Uncommitted" movement

They don't have leverage, period. In political science, I believe the term is "pariah group." It's like socialists. Politicians can't be seen endorsing socialism to gain socialist votes, because they will lose far more votes in the middle (the problem with the Bernie Sanders campaigns and generally the problem with embracing that label if you want to be president).

All they can do is wreck things. They will either vote for Kamala, in which case what was the point? Or they won't vote for Kamala, which means nobody will ever care about them again (if Kamala wins despite their lack of support, they will have demonstrated their impotence; if she loses, they will be rightly despised by Dems everywhere). Or they can make a lot of noise, make swing voters identify Kamala with radical protests that people generally hate, and then what?

What they won't get is Kamala changing her position at all -- not publicly at least. Especially now. It will look like she is kowtowing to the radical left. Giving them anything would be validating Trump's incoherent and ridiculous rants about "RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS."

It is so frustrating because we've seen this play out before. How much leverage did the Green Party and Ralph Nader get after 2000? None. None more leverage. In fact, the Naderites just faded away and Nader's '04 campaign was ignored and inconsequential. How much leverage did the Green Party get after 2016? None. How much leverage did the antiwar protesters get after 1968? Well, I suppose you could say, "some" given McGovern's nomination in 72. So instead of wrecking one election they wrecked several.
All due respect, your politics are rooted in a different age than the one we’re currently in, and I don’t think your examples are apt comparisons.

Your post tells me you simply misunderstand the protestors’ goals. Many of them will vote for Kamala, which apparently you can’t fathom. How could they protest her and vote for her?

If the anti-genocide movement is silent, there is NO ONE in this country who will speak out for the Palestinians. I know that you know that Democrats would love to avoid the topic altogether.

The anti-genocide protestors want to force the issue, and they are. Doesn’t seem to be harming Harris and she is engaging with their position.
 
They don't have leverage, period. In political science, I believe the term is "pariah group." It's like socialists. Politicians can't be seen endorsing socialism to gain socialist votes, because they will lose far more votes in the middle (the problem with the Bernie Sanders campaigns and generally the problem with embracing that label if you want to be president).

All they can do is wreck things. They will either vote for Kamala, in which case what was the point? Or they won't vote for Kamala, which means nobody will ever care about them again (if Kamala wins despite their lack of support, they will have demonstrated their impotence; if she loses, they will be rightly despised by Dems everywhere). Or they can make a lot of noise, make swing voters identify Kamala with radical protests that people generally hate, and then what?

What they won't get is Kamala changing her position at all -- not publicly at least. Especially now. It will look like she is kowtowing to the radical left. Giving them anything would be validating Trump's incoherent and ridiculous rants about "RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS."

It is so frustrating because we've seen this play out before. How much leverage did the Green Party and Ralph Nader get after 2000? None. None more leverage. In fact, the Naderites just faded away and Nader's '04 campaign was ignored and inconsequential. How much leverage did the Green Party get after 2016? None. How much leverage did the antiwar protesters get after 1968? Well, I suppose you could say, "some" given McGovern's nomination in 72. So instead of wrecking one election they wrecked several.
Eh. That’s a pretty pessimistic view, and I say that as someone who agrees that it’s not a great strategy. But to call a marginalized group “pariahs” is part of what made them marginalized in the first place.
 
Super never implied otherwise.
He said “All they can do is wreck things. They will either vote for Kamala, in which case what was the point?”

That implies he thinks the protests are pointless if the protestors eventually vote for Harris.
 
He said “All they can do is wreck things. They will either vote for Kamala, in which case what was the point?”

That implies he thinks the protests are pointless if the protestors eventually vote for Harris.
He clearly can fathom them voting for Kamala. It is literally in the text you quoted.
 
He clearly can fathom them voting for Kamala. It is literally in the text you quoted.
Let me rephrase: I didn’t mean he literally can’t fathom it. Rather, in his estimation, if a protestor votes for Kamala, then all of their protests were for naught.

In reality, many protestors will vote for Kamala and still have made a difference by protesting.

If we want to talk about political science, then we need to acknowledge the political science behind political protests.

It’s just also incredibly disrespectful and infuriating to equate protestors of an ongoing genocide to Ralph freaking Nader thinking he can be president. Those two aren’t the same thing.

These radical protestors who have the audacity to say “Free Palestine” and “we wont vote for genocide.”
 
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All of this reeks of the same type of person who thinks Black Lives Matter had leaders. The Left in America has largely learned to not have highly visible leaders anymore, for obvious reasons.

There are hundreds of organizations involved in anti-genocide and pro-ceasefire protests. Some are looking for policy changes. Some are looking for rhetoric changes. No one controls all of these groups.

It’s also a mistake, and a bit racist, to think this issue is limited to Arabic voters in Michigan. The reality is, this is an important issue to a ton of under 30 voters.
 
The disruptions will continue until the media stop making the story about them...
That’s until November then. Democrats in disarray is a favorite story, and right wing media will hype up the disruptions any chance they get.
 
Let me rephrase: I didn’t mean he literally can’t fathom it. Rather, in his estimation, if a protestor votes for Kamala, then all of their protests were for naught.

In reality, many protestors will vote for Kamala and still have made a difference by protesting.

If we want to talk about political science, then we need to acknowledge the political science behind political protests.

It’s just also incredibly disrespectful and infuriating to equate protestors of an ongoing genocide to Ralph freaking Nader thinking he can be president. Those two aren’t the same thing.

These radical protestors who have the audacity to say “Free Palestine” and “we wont vote for genocide.”
And I think he is arguing that doing it makes it more difficult for her to win because of the democrats in disarray narrative. But I do agree that this is an issue that impacts a lot of states, and also impacts how safe Muslims in small towns feel, particularly in the wake of what is going on in the UK. Taking a clear and vocal stance on that political violence would, I think, do a lot of good as a start.
 
And I think he is arguing that doing it makes it more difficult for her to win because of the democrats in disarray narrative. But I do agree that this is an issue that impacts a lot of states, and also impacts how safe Muslims in small towns feel, particularly in the wake of what is going on in the UK. Taking a clear and vocal stance on that political violence would, I think, do a lot of good as a start.
I think it makes it more difficult for her to win if that’s the narrative too, but that’s the media’s doing.
 
But, the media that were actively barred from there have done an incredible job. The rest, not as much.
 
They don't have leverage, period. In political science, I believe the term is "pariah group." It's like socialists. Politicians can't be seen endorsing socialism to gain socialist votes, because they will lose far more votes in the middle (the problem with the Bernie Sanders campaigns and generally the problem with embracing that label if you want to be president).

All they can do is wreck things. They will either vote for Kamala, in which case what was the point? Or they won't vote for Kamala, which means nobody will ever care about them again (if Kamala wins despite their lack of support, they will have demonstrated their impotence; if she loses, they will be rightly despised by Dems everywhere). Or they can make a lot of noise, make swing voters identify Kamala with radical protests that people generally hate, and then what?

What they won't get is Kamala changing her position at all -- not publicly at least. Especially now. It will look like she is kowtowing to the radical left. Giving them anything would be validating Trump's incoherent and ridiculous rants about "RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS."

It is so frustrating because we've seen this play out before. How much leverage did the Green Party and Ralph Nader get after 2000? None. None more leverage. In fact, the Naderites just faded away and Nader's '04 campaign was ignored and inconsequential. How much leverage did the Green Party get after 2016? None. How much leverage did the antiwar protesters get after 1968? Well, I suppose you could say, "some" given McGovern's nomination in 72. So instead of wrecking one election they wrecked several.
You also should have led with "I don't understand protests...."
 
All due respect, your politics are rooted in a different age than the one we’re currently in, and I don’t think your examples are apt comparisons.

Your post tells me you simply misunderstand the protestors’ goals. Many of them will vote for Kamala, which apparently you can’t fathom. How could they protest her and vote for her?

If the anti-genocide movement is silent, there is NO ONE in this country who will speak out for the Palestinians. I know that you know that Democrats would love to avoid the topic altogether.
1. My politics is rooted in the 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. I do not think so much has changed. I certainly haven't seen anything in today's politics that is unfamiliar to me. Trump and social media have changed things to some extent, but it's lazy to say, "you're old, you don't get it."

2. I was commenting on the specific interview I posted, and in particular the last paragraph of that interview when the organizer of the uncommitted movement expressly stated her motivations. And she said very clearly that she won't encourage people to vote for Kamala unless there's a change of position.

3. There are plenty of people who will speak out for the Palestinians. In fact, many have. On the ZZLP, there were arguments raging. Dozens of posters were made plenty aware of what was happening.

There were protests all through the streets of many cities last year. Peaceful protests, tinged with some anti-Jewish harassment, but overall enough to raise everyone's awareness.

4. These protesters are the ones who don't get it. Israel handed them the public relations victory on a platter. The entire world was sympathetic to the victims in Gaza. And then these lunatic radicals started burning American flags, shouting Hamas slogans, whatever. Maybe Iran is paying them, who knows.

The goal of any protest movement is, first and foremost, to connect with people. You have to make it seem like your cause is their cause. Look at how the civil rights movement did it. They knew it wouldn't be easy to recruit white people to protest on behalf of black people. So instead, they framed the movement as an integral part of the American dream. They were asking white people to protest on behalf of America, on behalf of our ideals of freedom and equality.

There weren't nearly as many gay rights protests, especially in the 1980s -- in part because they didn't need protests per se. They just started coming out of the closet, and encouraging other gay people to come out, and then everyone could see that gay people were their friends, family and neighbors. So the movement for gay rights sold its underlying proposition as don't hate your neighbors just because who they love and also a bit of the protest on behalf of America.

Protest movements need to get the public to identify with their cause.

The Palestinian protest movement has done exactly the opposite. It has repelled people. It has made people think, "gee, I guess my options are support Israel or support Hamas" and anyone with a brain knows how Americans are going to come out on that. And to make it worse, the protesters are acting like terrorists. "Uncommitted" is the political equivalent of suicide bombing.
 
1. My politics is rooted in the 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. I do not think so much has changed. I certainly haven't seen anything in today's politics that is unfamiliar to me. Trump and social media have changed things to some extent, but it's lazy to say, "you're old, you don't get it."

2. I was commenting on the specific interview I posted, and in particular the last paragraph of that interview when the organizer of the uncommitted movement expressly stated her motivations. And she said very clearly that she won't encourage people to vote for Kamala unless there's a change of position.

3. There are plenty of people who will speak out for the Palestinians. In fact, many have. On the ZZLP, there were arguments raging. Dozens of posters were made plenty aware of what was happening.

There were protests all through the streets of many cities last year. Peaceful protests, tinged with some anti-Jewish harassment, but overall enough to raise everyone's awareness.

4. These protesters are the ones who don't get it. Israel handed them the public relations victory on a platter. The entire world was sympathetic to the victims in Gaza. And then these lunatic radicals started burning American flags, shouting Hamas slogans, whatever. Maybe Iran is paying them, who knows.

The goal of any protest movement is, first and foremost, to connect with people. You have to make it seem like your cause is their cause. Look at how the civil rights movement did it. They knew it wouldn't be easy to recruit white people to protest on behalf of black people. So instead, they framed the movement as an integral part of the American dream. They were asking white people to protest on behalf of America, on behalf of our ideals of freedom and equality.

There weren't nearly as many gay rights protests, especially in the 1980s -- in part because they didn't need protests per se. They just started coming out of the closet, and encouraging other gay people to come out, and then everyone could see that gay people were their friends, family and neighbors. So the movement for gay rights sold its underlying proposition as don't hate your neighbors just because who they love and also a bit of the protest on behalf of America.

Protest movements need to get the public to identify with their cause.

The Palestinian protest movement has done exactly the opposite. It has repelled people. It has made people think, "gee, I guess my options are support Israel or support Hamas" and anyone with a brain knows how Americans are going to come out on that. And to make it worse, the protesters are acting like terrorists. "Uncommitted" is the political equivalent of suicide bombing.
The things you’re saying about the “Palestinian protest movement” repelling people is the same argument that people made against the movements you cite.

There were plenty of white people who didn’t support civil rights because they thought some protestors were radical.

You also seem to be unaware of the full history of the movements you cite, considering you only talk about certain groups within those movements. Again, they aren’t monoliths.

What is your recommended method for anti-genocide protestors to get the public on their side?
 
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