First Amendment creates political violence

superrific

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I've expressed this idea before, but I think it's worth re-examining.

There's one particular part of First Amendment doctrine that I think is truly harming the world: the freedom to lie with near impunity. Our only way of addressing those lies is through defamation, and a) the "actual malice" standard protects so much shit; and b) most people can't realistically bring defamation actions because their damages would not cover litigation costs.

Sullivan v New York Times was the right outcome in that case, and it was also right to note that intent has to be an element of a defamation action in the realm of public discourse. But it needs to be paired with criminal defamation laws. We would need protections against abuse, like "the state pays all defendants' fees if the case is not meritorious," and SLAAP laws. What cannot be tolerated is the firehose of falseness that infects the political discourse.

How does this relate to political violence? Easy. The country was founded on speaking truth to power. The Declaration was one of the great examples of speaking truth to power in history. And it's speaking truth to power that gives people hope, that makes them work within the system. If you are being oppressed by powerful people, then what makes America great is the ability to stand up and say, "look at what they are doing to us!" "Is this the society we want?" "Say to my face that you deem me subhuman," etc.

When truth doesn't matter, then only violence does. The problem that Dems face now -- the reason that people on the left see them as squeamish -- is that there is no effective response in a world in which partisanship trumps reality. And when you can't end oppression with truth-telling, people will result to other means. The killer of Kirk might well be a transgender person (or has transgender loved ones) who has been unable to get gender-affirming medical care. And since it means nothing to say, "they are lying about transgender people," what should someone who had their medical care forcibly stripped from them do in response? Dialogue not being an option, the choices as I see them are acquiesce to oppression or fight.

We should have laws that allow people to be put in jail when they knowingly say things like "they are eating the dogs, they are eating the pets." Or that there are gangs of illegal immigrants walking up from Mexico to Minnesota to take peoples' summer homes (remember when that was a thing?) or taking over the police force of a town, etc. Not all lies need be eligible for this treatment. If Trump says he never knew Epstein, I don't really care that much. It's when he lies about others that it's a problem.

Until we realize that lies are metastatic cancers on civic society that should not be tolerated, the death spiral of democracy will continue.
 
I've expressed this idea before, but I think it's worth re-examining.

There's one particular part of First Amendment doctrine that I think is truly harming the world: the freedom to lie with near impunity. Our only way of addressing those lies is through defamation, and a) the "actual malice" standard protects so much shit; and b) most people can't realistically bring defamation actions because their damages would not cover litigation costs.

Sullivan v New York Times was the right outcome in that case, and it was also right to note that intent has to be an element of a defamation action in the realm of public discourse. But it needs to be paired with criminal defamation laws. We would need protections against abuse, like "the state pays all defendants' fees if the case is not meritorious," and SLAAP laws. What cannot be tolerated is the firehose of falseness that infects the political discourse.

How does this relate to political violence? Easy. The country was founded on speaking truth to power. The Declaration was one of the great examples of speaking truth to power in history. And it's speaking truth to power that gives people hope, that makes them work within the system. If you are being oppressed by powerful people, then what makes America great is the ability to stand up and say, "look at what they are doing to us!" "Is this the society we want?" "Say to my face that you deem me subhuman," etc.

When truth doesn't matter, then only violence does. The problem that Dems face now -- the reason that people on the left see them as squeamish -- is that there is no effective response in a world in which partisanship trumps reality. And when you can't end oppression with truth-telling, people will result to other means. The killer of Kirk might well be a transgender person (or has transgender loved ones) who has been unable to get gender-affirming medical care. And since it means nothing to say, "they are lying about transgender people," what should someone who had their medical care forcibly stripped from them do in response? Dialogue not being an option, the choices as I see them are acquiesce to oppression or fight.

We should have laws that allow people to be put in jail when they knowingly say things like "they are eating the dogs, they are eating the pets." Or that there are gangs of illegal immigrants walking up from Mexico to Minnesota to take peoples' summer homes (remember when that was a thing?) or taking over the police force of a town, etc. Not all lies need be eligible for this treatment. If Trump says he never knew Epstein, I don't really care that much. It's when he lies about others that it's a problem.

Until we realize that lies are metastatic cancers on civic society that should not be tolerated, the death spiral of democracy will continue.
Who decides who is lying and who isn’t…
 
What if they lie…We have people sitting in prison right now that are innocent because someone lied on them…
Oh yea
Its imperfect-but I can't think of a better way Especially today-can you imagine who orangeman would appoint as the Arbitrator In Charge-if that was who was in charge of such decisions ?
 
Who decides who is lying and who isn’t…
Juries make this determination every day. Perjury convictions specifically require it, as do defamation actions. In civil court, juries often have to choose which witnesses to believe and which not to.

This is not a problem.
 
I've expressed this idea before, but I think it's worth re-examining.

There's one particular part of First Amendment doctrine that I think is truly harming the world: the freedom to lie with near impunity. Our only way of addressing those lies is through defamation, and a) the "actual malice" standard protects so much shit; and b) most people can't realistically bring defamation actions because their damages would not cover litigation costs.

Sullivan v New York Times was the right outcome in that case, and it was also right to note that intent has to be an element of a defamation action in the realm of public discourse. But it needs to be paired with criminal defamation laws. We would need protections against abuse, like "the state pays all defendants' fees if the case is not meritorious," and SLAAP laws. What cannot be tolerated is the firehose of falseness that infects the political discourse.

How does this relate to political violence? Easy. The country was founded on speaking truth to power. The Declaration was one of the great examples of speaking truth to power in history. And it's speaking truth to power that gives people hope, that makes them work within the system. If you are being oppressed by powerful people, then what makes America great is the ability to stand up and say, "look at what they are doing to us!" "Is this the society we want?" "Say to my face that you deem me subhuman," etc.

When truth doesn't matter, then only violence does. The problem that Dems face now -- the reason that people on the left see them as squeamish -- is that there is no effective response in a world in which partisanship trumps reality. And when you can't end oppression with truth-telling, people will result to other means. The killer of Kirk might well be a transgender person (or has transgender loved ones) who has been unable to get gender-affirming medical care. And since it means nothing to say, "they are lying about transgender people," what should someone who had their medical care forcibly stripped from them do in response? Dialogue not being an option, the choices as I see them are acquiesce to oppression or fight.

We should have laws that allow people to be put in jail when they knowingly say things like "they are eating the dogs, they are eating the pets." Or that there are gangs of illegal immigrants walking up from Mexico to Minnesota to take peoples' summer homes (remember when that was a thing?) or taking over the police force of a town, etc. Not all lies need be eligible for this treatment. If Trump says he never knew Epstein, I don't really care that much. It's when he lies about others that it's a problem.

Until we realize that lies are metastatic cancers on civic society that should not be tolerated, the death spiral of democracy will continue.
I am not concerned about prohibiting abridging the freedom of speech.

My concern today is what is happening with this GQP administration abridging the freedom of the press ,the right for people to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
I am not concerned about prohibiting abridging the freedom of speech.

My concern today is what is happening with this GQP administration abridging the freedom of the press ,the right for people to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Your first sentence is impressive. In four words you managed to work in three logical negations. Not sure what you are saying there.

The GOP administration got into power by lying, yes? And it justifies its actions with lies. It lies to courts. It lies on social media. If people could be prosecuted for malicious lying, I'll bet our politics would look far different.

Fun fact: lies are not actually protected by the First Amendment. It's just that the Supreme Court used to be so concerned about chilling truthful speech that it opened the floodgates to lies. The Sullivan case itself was a reporter truthfully reporting on a civil rights event, but making a small factual error.

Sullivan v New York Times was one of a long string of cases in which the Court was called upon to enforce the First Amendment for the benefit of civil rights protesters. Southern states were constantly trying to suppress speech using every possible avenue. So the balance of the equities was strongly with the speech activists. The world is different now.
 
Your first sentence is impressive. In four words you managed to work in three logical negations. Not sure what you are saying there.

The GOP administration got into power by lying, yes? And it justifies its actions with lies. It lies to courts. It lies on social media. If people could be prosecuted for malicious lying, I'll bet our politics would look far different.

Fun fact: lies are not actually protected by the First Amendment. It's just that the Supreme Court used to be so concerned about chilling truthful speech that it opened the floodgates to lies. The Sullivan case itself was a reporter truthfully reporting on a civil rights event, but making a small factual error.

Sullivan v New York Times was one of a long string of cases in which the Court was called upon to enforce the First Amendment for the benefit of civil rights protesters. Southern states were constantly trying to suppress speech using every possible avenue. So the balance of the equities was strongly with the speech activists. The world is different now.
Let me clarify.

I support all parts of the 1st Amendment.

I may have missed your point when you posted "There's one particular part of First Amendment doctrine that I think is truly harming the world: the freedom to lie with near impunity."

As a lay person, I have understood there is a limit to free speech such as you can't yell fire in a crowded theater which is not political speech.

To me the 1st Amendment seems to be speaking to political speech, but I am not a Constitutional scholar so I could be wrong.

The components of the Amendment seem to address the political :

freedom of the press
right to assemble
petition the government for grievances

It is those parts that are being violated that concern me.
 
Let me clarify.

I support all parts of the 1st Amendment.

I may have missed your point when you posted "There's one particular part of First Amendment doctrine that I think is truly harming the world: the freedom to lie with near impunity."

As a lay person, I have understood there is a limit to free speech such as you can't yell fire in a crowded theater which is not political speech.

To me the 1st Amendment seems to be speaking to political speech, but I am not a Constitutional scholar so I could be wrong.

The components of the Amendment seem to address the political :

freedom of the press
right to assemble
petition the government for grievances

It is those parts that are being violated that concern me.
OK, gotcha. I would say that the violations of those are downstream from the incessant lying.
 
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