Fragility and Death

[MendotoManteo]

I don't know exactly where I intend this to go. But another poster brought up ancient philosophy earlier, and that got me on a path. I saw where Marcus Aurelius tells us to think of ourselves as already dead.

That's good. I like that. My whole life, I have spent as if I would live forever. Which is to say, fearful. But I see now that's not the case, obviously.

The last time I saw one of my grandmothers during the holiday season of 23-24, she asked when I'd return (I live in California now; my family is in North Carolina). When I told her that I guess it would be another year or two, she said, "I won't be here." And she was right.

I've always been very sensitive. Some might call that "fragile." And they may be right.

I have had a strong obsession with death the past few years. I turned 40 this past December. It has been very strange to see everyone around me get so much older. People who were there since I could first remember. Now, they're either withered or dead. Obviously, this is not endemic to me. We all experience it, but it has certainly made me think a lot.

Last thing I'll say, and it's not to toot my horn, but I'm a fairly fit and good-looking guy. I've always had trouble, however, talking with women. I was very heavy and ugly, growing up. I think I'm now finally going to do the Aurelius thing and think of myself as dead. Don't be an asshole and don't be stupid. But just go for things when opportunity presents.

Again, I don't know the point of this thread myself. But perhaps others will find it useful to express their own thoughts or frustrations about the fragility of our lives and the significance of death. A confessional thread, of sorts.

PS: if I don't respond, it's because I've gone into hibernation mode. But I'll try my best in time.

 

[4heels4evr]

I don't know exactly where I intend this to go. But another poster brought up ancient philosophy earlier, and that got me on a path. I saw where Marcus Aurelius tells us to think of ourselves as already dead.

That's good. I like that. My whole life, I have spent as if I would live forever. Which is to say, fearful. But I see now that's not the case, obviously.

The last time I saw one of my grandmothers during the holiday season of 23-24, she asked when I'd return (I live in California now; my family is in North Carolina). When I told her that I guess it would be another year or two, she said, "I won't be here." And she was right.

I've always been very sensitive. Some might call that "fragile." And they may be right.

I have had a strong obsession with death the past few years. I turned 40 this past December. It has been very strange to see everyone around me get so much older. People who were there since I could first remember. Now, they're either withered or dead. Obviously, this is not endemic to me. We all experience it, but it has certainly made me think a lot.

Last thing I'll say, and it's not to toot my horn, but I'm a fairly fit and good-looking guy. I've always had trouble, however, talking with women. I was very heavy and ugly, growing up. I think I'm now finally going to do the Aurelius thing and think of myself as dead. Don't be an asshole and don't be stupid. But just go for things when opportunity presents.

Again, I don't know the point of this thread myself. But perhaps others will find it useful to express their own thoughts or frustrations about the fragility of our lives and the significance of death. A confessional thread, of sorts.

PS: if I don't respond, it's because I've gone into hibernation mode. But I'll try my best in time.

@ 36 I went into the cafe @ work and announced I was half done, that was 40 years ago and I'm still kickin, well maybe shuffling hahahah

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I've seen more dead and dying people than I can count. It used to bother me immensely. Now I hardly get bothered by it at all. Maybe it will again someday, but that is not something that I can control.

I've learned that every single day is a gift. Don't take anything for granted. Life can and does end in an unplanned instant for many people. I try to plan for the future without losing sight of how precious the present is.

After being exposed to so much of it, my fear now is not dying suddenly in some kind of accident or freak medical emergency. It is dying slowly from some horrible disease. I don't want to know it is coming. My even greater fear is the inevitableness of losing the people I love. I'd rather die first, but I know that is selfish and either way all of it is not up to me. No sense worrying about it, I tell myself. But sometimes I do.

 

[MendotoManteo]

@ 36 I went into the cafe @ work and announced I was half done, that was 40 years ago and I'm still kickin, well maybe shuffling hahahah

This is something though that many of us stand to learn so much from you at 76, I'm assuming. You've seen so much more of the fragility of life.

I mean, how does it affect you?

When I was younger, it seemed so abstract. And I don't wish to be morbid, but you certainly see now it's near your door. It amazes me how so many others seem to just deal with it.

I've always been depressed, however, so perhaps those who are not can cope with it better than me. But I don't know your story.

 

[MendotoManteo]

I've seen more dead and dying people than I can count. It used to bother me immensely. Now I hardly get bothered by it at all. Maybe it will again someday, but that is not something that I can control.

I've learned that every single day is a gift. Don't take anything for granted. Life can and does end in an unplanned instant for many people. I try to plan for the future without losing sight of how precious the present is.

After being exposed to so much of it, my fear now is not dying suddenly in some kind of accident or freak medical emergency. It is dying slowly from some horrible disease. I don't want to know it is coming. My even greater fear is the inevitableness of losing the people I love. I'd rather die first, but I know that is selfish and either way all of it is not up to me. No sense worrying about it, I tell myself. But sometimes I do.

I agree with you. My two worst fears:

1. Dying slowly, as you said. I'd much rather go instantly. And would probably preempt if capable. If you catch my drift.

2. Dying before my mom. I'm an only child, and she is too. She's 64 now. Who will look after her, should I be gone? It worries me.

Regarding the gift of life, it's our own deaths and those of everyone significant to us that gives our individual, little worlds meaning. I understand this fully. But it's still very hard. And I do not understand those who seem to confront this inevitability with acceptance or even alacrity. I resist! I guess I'm trying to understand this.

But perhaps I need to follow the Aurelius: we're already dead. As I said, I've lived life as if dormant and in slumber because, I guess, I thought I'd live forever.

 

[4heels4evr]

This is something though that many of us stand to learn so much from you at 76, I'm assuming. You've seen so much more of the fragility of life.

I mean, how does it affect you?

When I was younger, it seemed so abstract. And I don't wish to be morbid, but you certainly see now it's near your door. It amazes me how so many others seem to just deal with it.

I've always been depressed, however, so perhaps those who are not can cope with it better than me. But I don't know your story.

I actually suffer with depression and most every day think about how easy it could be to dye, I am not concerned about it at all. Several months ago, I guess right after Biden debate I purchased some equipment needed to complete the act except for the helium necessary to finish the job and maybe if I could have gotten the helim who knows. But anyhow I have a very good life, wife of 55 years and children and grandkids no financial concerns except for my worries about how the US is headed with CG/GW, MAGA, Trump, Musk and all the hate in the world I think I should be the happiest person around.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I agree with you. My two worst fears:

1. Dying slowly, as you said. I'd much rather go instantly. And would probably preempt if capable. If you catch my drift.

2. Dying before my mom. I'm an only child, and she is too. She's 64 now. Who will look after her, should I be gone? It worries me.

Regarding the gift of life, it's our own deaths and those of everyone significant to us that gives our individual, little worlds meaning. I understand this fully. But it's still very hard. And I do not understand those who seem to confront this inevitability with acceptance or even alacrity. I resist! I guess I'm trying to understand this.

But perhaps I need to follow the Aurelius: we're already dead. As I said, I've lived life as if dormant and in slumber because, I guess, I thought I'd live forever.

It is never too late to start living. Life is beautiful, each day is a blessing, and realizing that can be the biggest blessing of all. That doesn't mean we should never feel sad or down. Just that we should recognize that the human experience is full of ups and downs, and the lows should make us not just appreciate the highs but also those normal moments when nothing is going super well but nothing is going wrong either.

 

[nycfan]

When I was in my mid 40s I started having a recurring nightmare I can’t even properly describe, but the gist was that I would face a sudden moment that I knew I had to avoid doing some thing, then darkness would descend and I would wake up sure I was having a heart attack. Sweating, feeling like the breath was knocked out of me, disoriented. Freaked.

One night I saw my reflection in the sliding glass door looking out on the lake and realized I was dreaming my death. It was freaky and I couldn’t go back to sleep but was also relieved and spent the rest of the night reflecting on it. I was dreaming the moment I cease to exist and it was terrifying. But somehow, having identified death as the central character, the nightmare was banished.

So I probably just revived the seed of the nightmare but I think we all struggle to deal with it at different points of adulthood. I think now that my son is a young adult it has taken the pressure off my mind about it to a certain extent (which is far from accepting or embracing the inevitable).

 

[MendotoManteo]

I actually suffer with depression and most every day think about how easy it could be to dye, I am not concerned about it at all. Several months ago, I guess right after Biden debate I purchased some equipment needed to complete the act except for the helium necessary to finish the job and maybe if I could have gotten the helim who knows. But anyhow I have a very good life, wife of 55 years and children and grandkids no financial concerns except for my worries about how the US is headed with CG/GW, MAGA, Trump, Musk and all the hate in the world I think I should be the happiest person around.

Well, hang in there, 4heels.

Tell you what: I'll make a deal with you. You stick around longer to show us the error of our ways, and I'll go out and talk to pretty women for a change. Haha!

 

[nycfan]

I will also add that my father died of cancer at 53. I watched him go at the hospital. Now that I am older than he was when he died, it has given me new perspective on how young he really was, which is very depressing but has also given me an appreciation of having the time that he didn’t get and trying to enjoy it.

 

[nycfan]

I actually suffer with depression and most every day think about how easy it could be to dye, I am not concerned about it at all. Several months ago, I guess right after Biden debate I purchased some equipment needed to complete the act except for the helium necessary to finish the job and maybe if I could have gotten the helim who knows. But anyhow I have a very good life, wife of 55 years and children and grandkids no financial concerns except for my worries about how the US is headed with CG/GW, MAGA, Trump, Musk and all the hate in the world I think I should be the happiest person around.

Stay with us, man. The country has made it through a lot of terrible challenges and while we may go two steps forward and one and a half backwards at times, the trend has continued to be positive, however flawed. Help us make it through these years and keep moving inexorably, if unevenly, forward.

 

[MendotoManteo]

When I was in my mid 40s I started having a recurring nightmare I can’t even properly describe, but the gist was that I would face a sudden moment that I knew I had to avoid doing some thing, then darkness would descend and I would wake up sure I was having a heart attack. Sweating, feeling like the breath was knocked out of me, disoriented. Freaked.

One night I saw my reflection in the sliding glass door looking out on the lake and realized I was dreaming my death. It was freaky and I couldn’t go back to sleep but was also relieved and spent the rest of the night reflecting on it. I was dreaming the moment I cease to exist and it was terrifying. But somehow, having identified death as the central character, the nightmare was banished.

So I probably just revived the seed of the nightmare but I think we all struggle to deal with it at different points of adulthood. I think now that my son is a young adult it has taken the pressure off my mind about it to a certain extent (which is far from accepting or embracing the inevitable).

Thank you for sharing, nycfan. That sounds like a horrible experience.

As you say, though, I imagine you are encouraged by your son. This is longevity, in essence. And the sense you'll never truly die. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't know. One of the reasons my ex and I divorced was I knew I wouldn't be a good father with the way I am. But I take at least some solace in the fact that I had that understanding and reserve.

For those who don't know me, in ancient times, I probably would have been the one they threw in a hut outside the village or on a mountain top with bones and shit so that they could "figure out" things whenever they visited me. Lol.

Anyhow, I'm sure you're going to see great things from your son. You'll live a long time. Maybe forever.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

My dad is in his mid 80s and says the worst thing about reaching that age (and he’s still in decent shape, knock on wood) is most of his lifetime friends are gone. Keep making new friends he says. This also gibes with recent findings about men’s mental health correlating with social connections as they age.

 

[p5mmr9]

I think it is more helpful to live in the moment rather than giving in to mortality. Besides - it is easy for the emperor of the Roman empire to think of himself as dead. He's been dead for 1850 years or so.

 

[MendotoManteo]

I think it is more helpful to live in the moment rather than giving in to mortality. Besides - it is easy for the emperor of the Roman empire to think of himself as dead. He's been dead for 1850 years or so.

As I type a response with one of my cats literally on my back, stooped over, I see your point. Yes. easy for him to say.

 

[MendotoManteo]

Some things to talk about:

1. Our definition of "fragile" needs addressing. What is "fragile?" The way I see it, many "masculine" and "MAGA" men are very fragile. They whine like little girls about practically everything. And I do not mean to use little girls as an insult. Because little girls know how to behave and react, responsibly.

2. Finality
Doesn't have to concern death. Just the finish of things.

What is the meaning of the end?

It seems to me the road is the point. But the road is meaningless without its end.

 

[Yosef]

"All we are is dust in the wind"

 

[UNCatTech]

I don't know exactly where I intend this to go. But another poster brought up ancient philosophy earlier, and that got me on a path. I saw where Marcus Aurelius tells us to think of ourselves as already dead.

That's good. I like that. My whole life, I have spent as if I would live forever. Which is to say, fearful. But I see now that's not the case, obviously.

The last time I saw one of my grandmothers during the holiday season of 23-24, she asked when I'd return (I live in California now; my family is in North Carolina). When I told her that I guess it would be another year or two, she said, "I won't be here." And she was right.

I've always been very sensitive. Some might call that "fragile." And they may be right.

I have had a strong obsession with death the past few years. I turned 40 this past December. It has been very strange to see everyone around me get so much older. People who were there since I could first remember. Now, they're either withered or dead. Obviously, this is not endemic to me. We all experience it, but it has certainly made me think a lot.

Last thing I'll say, and it's not to toot my horn, but I'm a fairly fit and good-looking guy. I've always had trouble, however, talking with women. I was very heavy and ugly, growing up. I think I'm now finally going to do the Aurelius thing and think of myself as dead. Don't be an asshole and don't be stupid. But just go for things when opportunity presents.

Again, I don't know the point of this thread myself. But perhaps others will find it useful to express their own thoughts or frustrations about the fragility of our lives and the significance of death. A confessional thread, of sorts.

PS: if I don't respond, it's because I've gone into hibernation mode. But I'll try my best in time.

I have to admit that when I first read this post I was lost and confused.

I don't believe simply stating that Marcus Aurelius tells us to think of ourselves as already dead, is enough context. I didn't respond when I first read this thread, but something kept bringing me back. So, I looked up Marcus Aurelius and read some of his philosophy.

Google's AI response to everything is pretty annoying, but in this case it was a good start: Here it is.

“Think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life. Now take what's left and live it properly” is a quote by Marcus Aurelius, a stoic philosopher.

Some say that viewing ourselves as already dead can be a powerful tool to improve our lives in the present. It can help us:

• Plan for the future
• Do things that are close to our hearts
• Treat our current life as a second chance
• Maximize every aspect of our life

Here are some other ideas about living life as if you're already dead:

• Live each day as if it were your last
• Don't be frantic, apathetic, or pretentious
• Remember that very little is needed to make a happy life

If you are having suicidal thoughts, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988 for support and assistance from a trained counselor.


So, I believe we are on the same path, though I didn't realize that at first.

I'm 56 and I, and my wife, have reached that point in life. When I was younger, I basically was along for the ride. I let life lead me where it would without much planning. Looking back I wish I hadn't. And I am so grateful that my children do not. But somewhere around 2000 that started to change. I had to start actually making decisions, but still they were mostly guided by what was best for my family. Now I've reached a point where I am trying to shift to living what is left of my life properly. This not only includes enjoying life and doing more activities such as traveling. It also includes contemplating and looking into leaving my job and finding work that is more fulfilling in an area that would help society more. Trying to get more involved in movements to help promote equal rights and such.

I'm sure it will be a slow transition, if I am able to accomplish it, because I am so risk adverse and have a great fear of failure. But those are things I have to work through.

Your statement about obsession with death is interesting for a 40 year old.

My thoughts of death are that I've worked so hard, I'd be really pissed off if I died and didn't get to really enjoy what is left of my life.

 

[MendotoManteo]

"All we are is dust in the wind"

That's not an appropriate response for a beet farmer that believes in eternity.

 

[MendotoManteo]

I have to admit that when I first read this post I was lost and confused.

I don't believe simply stating that Marcus Aurelius tells us to think of ourselves as already dead, is enough context. I didn't respond when I first read this thread, but something kept bringing me back. So, I looked up Marcus Aurelius and read some of his philosophy.

Google's AI response to everything is pretty annoying, but in this case it was a good start: Here it is.

“Think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life. Now take what's left and live it properly” is a quote by Marcus Aurelius, a stoic philosopher.

Some say that viewing ourselves as already dead can be a powerful tool to improve our lives in the present. It can help us:

• Plan for the future
• Do things that are close to our hearts
• Treat our current life as a second chance
• Maximize every aspect of our life

Here are some other ideas about living life as if you're already dead:

• Live each day as if it were your last
• Don't be frantic, apathetic, or pretentious
• Remember that very little is needed to make a happy life

If you are having suicidal thoughts, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988 for support and assistance from a trained counselor.


So, I believe we are on the same path, though I didn't realize that at first.

I'm 56 and I, and my wife, have reached that point in life. When I was younger, I basically was along for the ride. I let life lead me where it would without much planning. Looking back I wish I hadn't. And I am so grateful that my children do not. But somewhere around 2000 that started to change. I had to start actually making decisions, but still they were mostly guided by what was best for my family. Now I've reached a point where I am trying to shift to living what is left of my life properly. This not only includes enjoying life and doing more activities such as traveling. It also includes contemplating and looking into leaving my job and finding work that is more fulfilling in an area that would help society more. Trying to get more involved in movements to help promote equal rights and such.

I'm sure it will be a slow transition, if I am able to accomplish it, because I am so risk adverse and have a great fear of failure. But those are things I have to work through.

Your statement about obsession with death is interesting for a 40 year old.

My thoughts of death are that I've worked so hard, I'd be really pissed off if I died and didn't get to really enjoy what is left of my life.

This was the point. Well done.