Harris v. Trump Debate Thread | DEBATE DISCUSSION THREAD

UNCMSinLS said:
Sadly, yes.

Both Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020 beat Trump badly in debates but you'd never know it from the media coverage. I'm not even certain Trump beat Biden in June. The draw was a sad, pathetic spectacle. Again, the media obsessed with Biden and let Trump's constant lying slide.
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You aren’t certain that Trump beat Biden in June?
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
You aren’t certain that Trump beat Biden in June?
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Of course he did in terms of vigor and tenacity. I don't think he did in terms of logic, reason, or actual debate. Biden was an incoherent senile mess. Trump is ALWAYS incoherent.

Do you disagree with that diagnosis of Trump? If so, can you point to times that he has laid out logical thought processes and policies?
 
nycfan said:
She really surprised me with her convention speech — I thought it was miles better than anything I’ve seen from her previously and aN extremely well constructed speech.

That said, her skill set is what it has always been professionally — a prosecutor. Great in senate hearings and similar settings where she is prepared in advance and controls the forum, pretty good as a convincing speaker of prepared text, but not so good being questioned or off the cuff.

I think a lot of folks risk far too high expectations of her in the debate for this reason. Her first debate in 2019 she was primed, ready and nearly decapitated the Biden run. But beyond prosecuting that case, she didn’t seem prepared with a justification for her candidacy. And I say that as a fairly early (not significant, just early) donor to her presidential primary campaign who was prepared to go all in on her run.

She has course corrected tremendously in this campaign, in large part I think b/c she is freed from the shackles of denying who she is politically and professionally (a prosecutor) and from the pressure in that primary to be wrenched well to the left, but also she had undeniably grown as a politician since her disappointing first year or so as VP.

But she hasn’t been in a debate since 2020 and her last debate appearances were more or less about auditioning for VP. Sure, she could annihilate Trump if she actually got to prosecute him rather than debate him.

And I’m still hopeful she will land fierce body blows in the debate. But she’ll take some blows, too, from the moderators and from the pressure. TBD whether she has a glass jaw. For certain, she needs a better answer on the what would you do on day 1 question and I have an outline/suggestion if she wants to avoid policy details:

No matter what some would have you believe, the President is not a dictator, and as much as I would like to implement all my policies on day one, in reality the President mush and should work within our Constitutional framework to make changes. But on day one I will establish clear goals for our future and our children’s future (blah blah freedom, opportunity economy, etc).

Tim Walz should be useful framing the answer like every new sports coach who comes in talking about a setting a new culture of winning based on expectations, accountability, goals etc. — the speech that leaves dedicated fans declaring that they are ready to charge through a brick wall for the new coach pretty much every damned time.
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Pretty much this. I think setting expectations low for her would be wise.

I think the primary goal is to demonstrate she is competent, Presidential, to navigate her “course corrections” on several key policy points and to avoid being pushed around by Trump.

That’s all well in her wheel house but, otherwise, I don’t think she has shown herself as a particularly adept debater.

As she has said, he is a deeply unserious man. You cannot get dragged into worrying about beating Trump. Or being some annoying fact checker.

She needs to be set on establishing the tone for her candidacy. Trump is a known quantity at this point. Anyone tuning in as even mildly undecided will be far more evaluating her than Donald. It doesn’t mean you can’t zing him….or occasionally fact check him. But you use this to emphasize you are in command of the subject matter and to take him off topic. Not to get sucked into a riposte with the man.
 
sleehrat1955 said:
You know, people like you who choose to bury your head in the sand are part of the problem. I don’t particularly “like” Harris, and Biden was my 3rd pick in 2020. But this isn’t a popularity contest. This is not a lesser of two evils situation. This is an inflection point moment in the history of our republic. This election is too important to sit on the sidelines.
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I certainly get that view. I just disagree. I think Harris and Trump will be equally bad, just in different ways. As a conservative, I don't like Harris stance on policy, not her personally, I should have been more clear. Trump however, awful for the party and the country. I agree it isn't a lesser of the two evils situation, both awful and I refuse to be vote for either one.
 
EhringhausSouth said:
I certainly get that view. I just disagree. I think Harris and Trump will be equally bad, just in different ways. As a conservative, I don't like Harris stance on policy, not her personally, I should have been more clear. Trump however, awful for the party and the country. I agree it isn't a lesser of the two evils situation, both awful and I refuse to be vote for either one.
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Do you agree with the bipartisan border bill that Kamala supports and Trump told Rs to torpedo?
 
EhringhausSouth said:
I certainly get that view. I just disagree. I think Harris and Trump will be equally bad, just in different ways. As a conservative, I don't like Harris stance on policy, not her personally, I should have been more clear. Trump however, awful for the party and the country. I agree it isn't a lesser of the two evils situation, both awful and I refuse to be vote for either one.
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It’s difficult for me to wrap my head around a rational person thinking that trump bad and Harris bad would be in the same stratosphere.
 
EhringhausSouth said:
It's an improvement, but need to do way more. To me, her proposal isn't ideal, no.
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Her proposal is to abide by the biggest bipartisan immigration fix in at least 4 decades. It offers legit fixes to massive issues that have plagued the system and are only getting worse. And it’s practically a wish-list for republicans, who wouldn’t have agreed to support it otherwise.

Not a chance Trump could do better.

Not to mention that Trump is single-handedly responsible for leaving an “open border” for the past 9 months or so, out of spite.
 
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Bigs23 said:
It’s difficult for me to wrap my head around a rational person thinking that trump bad and Harris bad would be in the same stratosphere.
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Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, or FDR could be the Democratic nominee and Republicans such EhringhausSouth would equate them to Trump because they’re Democrats.
 
Zoo_View said:
Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, or FDR could be the Democratic nominee and Republicans such EhringhausSouth would equate them to Trump because they’re Democrats.
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I’m afraid so. They seem to be a lost cause.
 
superrific said:
This roughly translates as "I don't have any idea what that border bill actually does, but right-wing news media said it was weak so I'm going with that.'
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Ah ha ha, Ehaus has a different opinion so you had to rush over here to do that thing y’all do. It’s so transparent and pathetic.

Sound vaguely familiar, supe?
 
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Croatoan said:
Ah ha ha, Ehaus has a different opinion so you had to rush over here to do that thing y’all do. It’s so transparent and pathetic.

Sound vaguely familiar, supe?
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Ehringhaus does have a different opinion but he fails to make his point(s) clearly or with any specifics. This last bit about the border bill and the VP’s “position” is a classic example. It’s low hanging fruit to nit pick it and call him out on it.

And whatever “that thing ya’ll do” on your side of the aisle is what’s pathetic.
 
Croatoan said:
Ah ha ha, Ehaus has a different opinion so you had to rush over here to do that thing y’all do. It’s so transparent and pathetic.

Sound vaguely familiar, supe?
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In my experience on the board, virtually all -- if not all -- of the people who say the immigration bill is too weak or "has to do more" have no idea what it would have and wouldn't have done. That includes you.

What Ehaus expressed was not an opinion. An opinion is a proposition based in reason and knowledge; it differs from a fact only in that it can't be proven or known with a high degree of confidence. For instance, it used to be an opinion that wood burned because of oxidation, as opposed to the different opinion that it burned because of phlogiston. That is no longer considered a matter of opinion.

Statements not based in reason and knowledge are not opinions. They are just spew. I will mock spew where I find it. If you want to spew, do it somewhere else. As you've been reminded before, this board is a grown-ups table. There are places for you to throw food. It shouldn't be here.
 
EyeballKid said:
Not a chance Trump could do better.
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Zero chance. Dems supported the negotiated bill even though it made a number of concessions to which they held their noses because it was the best bill that's been put together in decades. With Trump torpedoing it, if he wins, it won't get the 60 votes needed to get out of the Senate.
 
EyeballKid said:
Her proposal is to abide by the biggest bipartisan immigration fix in at least 4 decades. It offers legit fixes to massive issues that have plagued the system and are only getting worse. And it’s practically a wish-list for republicans, who wouldn’t have agreed to support it otherwise.

Not a chance Trump could do better.

Not to mention that Trump is single-handedly responsible for leaving an “open border” for the past 9 months or so, out of spite.
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Oh, I agree, it would be a big improvement, but I still don't think it goes far enough. I'd support it 100% once Harris is elected simply because it would a huge step in the right direction.
 
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