Health insurers are (sort of) the good guys (really!)

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This might be a good time to discuss the role that health insurers play in our health system, and whether they deserve the type of scorn they get. I learned from Paul Krugman the effectiveness of starting with an extremely simple model and then adding constraints, so let's do that.

1. Imagine a world with no health policy. It's just free market, with doctors and patients. How well does that relationship work for patients? Not well. There are two problems that can happen when you go to the doctor:

Doctor: I have bad news for you. You have Bonus Eruptus, a rare disease.
Patient: Oh, that sounds bad. Can I get a second opinion?
Doctor: Sure, but you've got about 12 hours to live without the procedure I can perform on you now
Patient: How much will it cost?
Doctor: All your worldly possessions, save the clothes on your back. Better to be a pauper than dead.

Doctors have the leverage because of their special expertise and because the service they provide can be, in some cases, obscenely valuable.

2. So faced with this market, what would patients do? Well, first, they have to organize together. Individual patients can never exert any leverage while they are potentially dying from lack of care. So we need a company (let's call it Spangle) of some sort that will represent patients, who will pay membership fees to be represented by it in negotiations. And what will Spangle do? First, it will negotiate sensible rates with the doctors. A doctor, after all, doesn't care about the repeat business of the patient who has already been billed "all your worldly possessions," but the repeat business from Spangle's members is certainly important. Thus can Spangle get the doctors to sign contracts that lay out a price schedule in advance, in exchange for the ability to treat Spangle patients.

But reimbursement doesn't fully fix it. You also need limits on what services can be charged. Otherwise, the treatment for Bonus Eruptus will consist of 1000 injections, each of which billed at the reasonable rate of $50 per. We'll be back to the "all worldly possessions" problem unless Spangle reserves the right not to pay for unnecessary treatments.

If Spangle sounds like what we would call a health insurer, that's not by accident! Indeed, this is how the health insurance market developed way back before WWII, and it's why the insurers were, for a very long time, organized as mutuals. At the beginning, they were nothing more than patient advocates that also pooled money to socialize expenses. They were the good guys! Really, they were.

3. So what went wrong? Why do people hate their insurers? Well, first, we need a bit more accurate terminology. Spangle didn't start life as an insurer -- not exactly. There wasn't a whole lot of insurance required in those days, because there wasn't all that much medical care. What patients needed was a centralized payer -- and indeed, that's exactly what Spangle became.

Then Employers got involved. Possibly the worst thing to happen to American health care, at least in the long run, was the special tax treatment provided for employer-paid health benefits. There were good reasons to get employers involved, to some degree. One major problem in any insurance market is self-selection. If insurance is priced at the average amount needed for the insurer to remain solvent, it will be too expensive for some people -- i.e. healthy people who have little risk and thus don't want to pay a lot for insurance. So they will opt out, leaving a smaller, sicker pool of patients seeking insurance. But now some of the people who were willing to pay the old rates are not willing to pay the new rates required by the sicker population. Iterate many times and you get the insurance death spiral, where insurance keeps getting increasingly expensive until it disappears.

The advantage of employer-sponsored health insurance is that employers can deliver large numbers of patients all at once. IIRC, the original health insurance models tended to be negotiated as part of union contracts, and they didn't require patient contributions or co-pays or anything like that. You worked at GM, you got your medical bills paid for. The health payer now gets a mix of healthy and unhealthy employees (esp. when you include family coverage), which reduces its risk, and it has a captive market that it can rely on to keep delivering the patients needed to keep the risk pool manageable.

But the problem with employer sponsored health insurance is familiar to us all: the employer is the buyer but not the user. And the employer doesn't necessarily care very much if patients occasionally get frustrated by the payment setup. After all, most employees are not patients most of the time. And non-patient employees will tend to value more compensation than a better experience in a service they don't use. Also, the no-copay system created very high costs. So co-pays and deductibles started to be imposed.

4. The modern "health insurance" company was born from this arrangement. Our company Spangle had policies that weren't aggressive in paying for care; mostly it just reviewed bills to make sure there weren't any utterly ridiculous charges or treatments. But then a competitor pitches employers on a new approach: being more restrictive in the treatments paid for, and how much they are paid, and thus halve what employers had to pay. It's not hard to see how this is going to work out -- Spangle can't survive unless it also starts clamping down on claims. Everyone has to be like United Health, because otherwise United Health will take their business.

Employers turned Blue Cross/ Blue Shield from a well-liked mutual another faceless corporate villain. But there were no alternatives, because nobody else could deliver huge batches of patients with a high risk diversification. Individual markets were dysfunctional for reasons sketched out above. There's also the potential for government to get involved; we can deal with that in another post or another thread.

5. Anyway, once Blue Cross/Blue Shield stopped being a mutual, and instead became a corporation . . . well, we know how this story ends. Profits and shareholders and all that. But even though the payers are now hated, they still perform an important function. Reimbursement rates and prior approvals are generally good things for patients. Sometimes we hate them, but without them, medical care would be even more expensive than it is now.

And that matters because otherwise we do stupid things like . . . get pissed off at payers who try to limit payments to anesthesiologists. That Anthem policy that has come under fire? That was good for patients! It was bad for some of the most overpaid doctors in the world. And somehow, those doctors managed to enlist populist anger at insurers to protect their bottom line. Hey liberals, you were had! Wake the fuck up! Hey Chris Murphy, BMW dealers all across the country thank you for helping to crush that Anthem policy -- you've helped ensure that their best customers continue to rake in the money and thus continue to buy luxury vehicles.


Now, in fairness, this type of policy change would have been terrible a decade and a half ago. That's because of the way doctors fought back against health payers once they stopped being mutuals: balance billing. When the payers were mutuals and looking out for their members, balance billing was (IIRC) typically prohibited by the reimbursement contracts. But once they became corporations mainly catering to employers . . . . they stopped caring, because their incentives were skewed. The employers would much rather pay $75 per doctor visit, with the doctor having the ability to charge the patient an extra $50, than to pay $90 per visit. Only a handful of patient/employees would suffer, and again most of the workers would enjoy higher pay. Companies that didn't permit balance billing would lose all their business, and again it's easy to see where this is going.

But balance billing is now illegal. And without balance billing, the risks of policies like Anthem's are not borne by patients at all.

6. THUS, IN CONCLUSION:

Health insurers used to be patient advocates. They still perform economic functions that overwhelmingly favor patients. Without third-party payers, health care would be way more expensive than it is now. BUT over time, the insurers became captured by THEIR payers, and they morphed from good guys into some of the more reviled companies anywhere.

BTW, and this is really worth another post if not another thread: these problems are endemic to paying for health care. If we were to go to Medicare For All, we'd have to do a better job of grappling with these issues than Medicare does. Otherwise, costs will grow out of control. And then, I imagine, people might not like Medicare as much as they do now. It's tricky.
 
I'll have to digest your post more to truly understand and respond.

Just a couple of things from my experience. Since I've had BCBS, my insurance problems have been 2% of what they were under United Healthcare.

United health care, everything regarding mental illness was a fight. But at the same time, we were struggling with my middle daughter my youngest was in CHOA for 9 days at a cost of almost $100K and they didn't blink an eye in paying for that. The only reason I can think of is that one was physical, and they couldn't fight it, the other was mental, and they could.

After my company switch to BCBS, we never had a denied claim for my middle daughter's mental health medical needs.

We also paid over $100K out of pocket over the course of my daughter's issues on top of what was turned in to insurance and covered.

For the amount of money that my company and I pay for my family's insurance, I should not have to deal with these things.

I also saw a little of what you are describing with my father, when his doctors were pushing him to have a procedure that clearly would not have helped improve his quality of life or prolonged his life.

I do believe that one aspect of solving the health care cost equation is to remove profits from the equation.
 
I'll have to digest your post more to truly understand and respond.

Just a couple of things from my experience. Since I've had BCBS, my insurance problems have been 2% of what they were under United Healthcare.

United health care, everything regarding mental illness was a fight. But at the same time, we were struggling with my middle daughter my youngest was in CHOA for 9 days at a cost of almost $100K and they didn't blink an eye in paying for that. The only reason I can think of is that one was physical, and they couldn't fight it, the other was mental, and they could.

After my company switch to BCBS, we never had a denied claim for my middle daughter's mental health medical needs.

We also paid over $100K out of pocket over the course of my daughter's issues on top of what was turned in to insurance and covered.

For the amount of money that my company and I pay for my family's insurance, I should not have to deal with these things.

I also saw a little of what you are describing with my father, when his doctors were pushing him to have a procedure that clearly would not have helped improve his quality of life or prolonged his life.

I do believe that one aspect of solving the health care cost equation is to remove profits from the equation.
1. United Health might be the worst (I don't know about that -- I don't mean I disagree; I mean I literally have no knowledge), but it's also true that there were changes to insurance market regulations post-Obamacare. It's possible that BCBS was better than United in part because of regulations, and that United today would be much better.

For one thing, mental health didn't become an essential service until 2014, meaning that until 2014, all insurers could provide really spotty mental health coverage if they wanted to. Not any more, unless Trump tosses the ACA or fucks with its coverage requirements.

2. Removing profits from the equation makes a lot of things look great until our economy becomes Soviet in nature. You don't have be a conservative to recognize that profits are integral to every halfway decent economic system. We don't need to remove profits from the equation and indeed we can't without a lot of other things changing. We just need regulations to properly incentivize the profits. Well, let me put it differently to avoid overconfidence. We can get most of the benefits of "no profit" with few of the costs, with sensible regulation. This is another reason I have never voted for the GOP. I've always hated the "all regulations are bad" mantra, even if they weren't also hypocritical about it.
 
1. United Health might be the worst (I don't know about that -- I don't mean I disagree; I mean I literally have no knowledge), but it's also true that there were changes to insurance market regulations post-Obamacare. It's possible that BCBS was better than United in part because of regulations, and that United today would be much better.

For one thing, mental health didn't become an essential service until 2014, meaning that until 2014, all insurers could provide really spotty mental health coverage if they wanted to. Not any more, unless Trump tosses the ACA or fucks with its coverage requirements.

2. Removing profits from the equation makes a lot of things look great until our economy becomes Soviet in nature. You don't have be a conservative to recognize that profits are integral to every halfway decent economic system. We don't need to remove profits from the equation and indeed we can't without a lot of other things changing. We just need regulations to properly incentivize the profits. Well, let me put it differently to avoid overconfidence. We can get most of the benefits of "no profit" with few of the costs, with sensible regulation. This is another reason I have never voted for the GOP. I've always hated the "all regulations are bad" mantra, even if they weren't also hypocritical about it.
Ok, maybe it's better described as a customer focused instead of profit focused.

A company can be non-profit and still pay their employees, have money for R&D, etc. Non-profit doesn't necessarily equate to the limitations that often seem to be associated with it.

I agree with regulations.

Also, from what I have heard and read about the complexities of insurance, some of them seem to only be surmountable by a single controlling entity or government.

Additionally, I don't believe any CEO is worth the incredible amounts they are paid in the US. maybe this is another topic. But I've read multiple things that show that CEOs in the US far outpace any other developed country in terms of pay above average income. I appreciate what a good CEO brings to a company, and they should be justly compensated, but average CEO pay in the US compared to the rest of the world is outrageous.

I've noticed the changes in my company since we spun off and became an individual publicly traded company, profit margins and all of the numbers reported to shareholders are now more important than anything. And I believe that focus on profits translates into declines in other areas.
 
Additionally, I don't believe any CEO is worth the incredible amounts they are paid in the US. maybe this is another topic. But I've read multiple things that show that CEOs in the US far outpace any other developed country in terms of pay above average income. I appreciate what a good CEO brings to a company, and they should be justly compensated, but average CEO pay in the US compared to the rest of the world is outrageous.

I've noticed the changes in my company since we spun off and became an individual publicly traded company, profit margins and all of the numbers reported to shareholders are now more important than anything. And I believe that focus on profits translates into declines in other areas.
This is definitely a different topic. It's worth discussing for sure, but on a different thread. You can start one now if you'd like, but we've got a lot of time on our hands for the next year or two at a minimum, and I think it's going to get boring because it's just going to be "Trump is stupid and evil" in seriatim and ad infinitum. Got to save something for the next rest stop.
 
So, doctors, providers, are the problem? I often thought that insurance companies shouldn’t be vilified the way they are. It”s providers that charge so much that we have to seek out 3rd parties to pay.
 
So, doctors, providers, are the problem? I often thought that insurance companies shouldn’t be vilified the way they are. It”s providers that charge so much that we have to seek out 3rd parties to pay.
I would not say that. It's a systemic problem. The centrality of employers to health coverage is a big contributing factor that could change.

If we made medical school free or much, much less expensive, then physician reimbursements could perhaps be reduced. But under our system, smart people wouldn't become doctors if it wasn't a ticket to an upper haute bourgeois life (nod to Whit Stillman). Med school is so much work; residency is so much work; both are exhausting; most people come out with hundreds of thousands in debt; and you just won't get people to go through all that to make $150K.
 
This might be a good time to discuss the role that health insurers play in our health system, and whether they deserve the type of scorn they get. I learned from Paul Krugman the effectiveness of starting with an extremely simple model and then adding constraints, so let's do that.

1. Imagine a world with no health policy. It's just free market, with doctors and patients. How well does that relationship work for patients? Not well. There are two problems that can happen when you go to the doctor:

Doctor: I have bad news for you. You have Bonus Eruptus, a rare disease.
Patient: Oh, that sounds bad. Can I get a second opinion?
Doctor: Sure, but you've got about 12 hours to live without the procedure I can perform on you now
Patient: How much will it cost?
Doctor: All your worldly possessions, save the clothes on your back. Better to be a pauper than dead.

Doctors have the leverage because of their special expertise and because the service they provide can be, in some cases, obscenely valuable.

2. So faced with this market, what would patients do? Well, first, they have to organize together. Individual patients can never exert any leverage while they are potentially dying from lack of care. So we need a company (let's call it Spangle) of some sort that will represent patients, who will pay membership fees to be represented by it in negotiations. And what will Spangle do? First, it will negotiate sensible rates with the doctors. A doctor, after all, doesn't care about the repeat business of the patient who has already been billed "all your worldly possessions," but the repeat business from Spangle's members is certainly important. Thus can Spangle get the doctors to sign contracts that lay out a price schedule in advance, in exchange for the ability to treat Spangle patients.

But reimbursement doesn't fully fix it. You also need limits on what services can be charged. Otherwise, the treatment for Bonus Eruptus will consist of 1000 injections, each of which billed at the reasonable rate of $50 per. We'll be back to the "all worldly possessions" problem unless Spangle reserves the right not to pay for unnecessary treatments.

If Spangle sounds like what we would call a health insurer, that's not by accident! Indeed, this is how the health insurance market developed way back before WWII, and it's why the insurers were, for a very long time, organized as mutuals. At the beginning, they were nothing more than patient advocates that also pooled money to socialize expenses. They were the good guys! Really, they were.

3. So what went wrong? Why do people hate their insurers? Well, first, we need a bit more accurate terminology. Spangle didn't start life as an insurer -- not exactly. There wasn't a whole lot of insurance required in those days, because there wasn't all that much medical care. What patients needed was a centralized payer -- and indeed, that's exactly what Spangle became.

Then Employers got involved. Possibly the worst thing to happen to American health care, at least in the long run, was the special tax treatment provided for employer-paid health benefits. There were good reasons to get employers involved, to some degree. One major problem in any insurance market is self-selection. If insurance is priced at the average amount needed for the insurer to remain solvent, it will be too expensive for some people -- i.e. healthy people who have little risk and thus don't want to pay a lot for insurance. So they will opt out, leaving a smaller, sicker pool of patients seeking insurance. But now some of the people who were willing to pay the old rates are not willing to pay the new rates required by the sicker population. Iterate many times and you get the insurance death spiral, where insurance keeps getting increasingly expensive until it disappears.

The advantage of employer-sponsored health insurance is that employers can deliver large numbers of patients all at once. IIRC, the original health insurance models tended to be negotiated as part of union contracts, and they didn't require patient contributions or co-pays or anything like that. You worked at GM, you got your medical bills paid for. The health payer now gets a mix of healthy and unhealthy employees (esp. when you include family coverage), which reduces its risk, and it has a captive market that it can rely on to keep delivering the patients needed to keep the risk pool manageable.

But the problem with employer sponsored health insurance is familiar to us all: the employer is the buyer but not the user. And the employer doesn't necessarily care very much if patients occasionally get frustrated by the payment setup. After all, most employees are not patients most of the time. And non-patient employees will tend to value more compensation than a better experience in a service they don't use. Also, the no-copay system created very high costs. So co-pays and deductibles started to be imposed.

4. The modern "health insurance" company was born from this arrangement. Our company Spangle had policies that weren't aggressive in paying for care; mostly it just reviewed bills to make sure there weren't any utterly ridiculous charges or treatments. But then a competitor pitches employers on a new approach: being more restrictive in the treatments paid for, and how much they are paid, and thus halve what employers had to pay. It's not hard to see how this is going to work out -- Spangle can't survive unless it also starts clamping down on claims. Everyone has to be like United Health, because otherwise United Health will take their business.

Employers turned Blue Cross/ Blue Shield from a well-liked mutual another faceless corporate villain. But there were no alternatives, because nobody else could deliver huge batches of patients with a high risk diversification. Individual markets were dysfunctional for reasons sketched out above. There's also the potential for government to get involved; we can deal with that in another post or another thread.

5. Anyway, once Blue Cross/Blue Shield stopped being a mutual, and instead became a corporation . . . well, we know how this story ends. Profits and shareholders and all that. But even though the payers are now hated, they still perform an important function. Reimbursement rates and prior approvals are generally good things for patients. Sometimes we hate them, but without them, medical care would be even more expensive than it is now.

And that matters because otherwise we do stupid things like . . . get pissed off at payers who try to limit payments to anesthesiologists. That Anthem policy that has come under fire? That was good for patients! It was bad for some of the most overpaid doctors in the world. And somehow, those doctors managed to enlist populist anger at insurers to protect their bottom line. Hey liberals, you were had! Wake the fuck up! Hey Chris Murphy, BMW dealers all across the country thank you for helping to crush that Anthem policy -- you've helped ensure that their best customers continue to rake in the money and thus continue to buy luxury vehicles.


Now, in fairness, this type of policy change would have been terrible a decade and a half ago. That's because of the way doctors fought back against health payers once they stopped being mutuals: balance billing. When the payers were mutuals and looking out for their members, balance billing was (IIRC) typically prohibited by the reimbursement contracts. But once they became corporations mainly catering to employers . . . . they stopped caring, because their incentives were skewed. The employers would much rather pay $75 per doctor visit, with the doctor having the ability to charge the patient an extra $50, than to pay $90 per visit. Only a handful of patient/employees would suffer, and again most of the workers would enjoy higher pay. Companies that didn't permit balance billing would lose all their business, and again it's easy to see where this is going.

But balance billing is now illegal. And without balance billing, the risks of policies like Anthem's are not borne by patients at all.

6. THUS, IN CONCLUSION:

Health insurers used to be patient advocates. They still perform economic functions that overwhelmingly favor patients. Without third-party payers, health care would be way more expensive than it is now. BUT over time, the insurers became captured by THEIR payers, and they morphed from good guys into some of the more reviled companies anywhere.

BTW, and this is really worth another post if not another thread: these problems are endemic to paying for health care. If we were to go to Medicare For All, we'd have to do a better job of grappling with these issues than Medicare does. Otherwise, costs will grow out of control. And then, I imagine, people might not like Medicare as much as they do now. It's tricky.
Based upon my experience dealing with private insurers and Medicare your contention that without 3rd party payers, health care costs would be more expensive is not the case.

Medicare is a highly efficient health care system. The cost of Medicare is impacted by providing care only to the elderly and chronically ill which is the most expensive cohort. Private insures have the luxury of insuring the least costly cohorts.

Implement a Medicare for all model and the the younger healthier cohort will dramatically reduce the cost of Medicare and give Medicare the leverage to negotiate the absurd cost of health care. Case in point, I will be undergoing an MRI next month which is being billed by the provider for $3600 . My Medicare plan will charge me $120.
 
the idea that you have to spend as much on “insurance” is so asinine. Insurance is to hedge against low probability situations. An ideal world insurance should be far far less, like $50/mo to insure for such a thing, and could be reimbursed by the govt for people who can’t afford this, while health care services for not so common events (getting sick, stitches, etc.) where you see a health care professional shouldn’t be tied to insurance and should be just a service you pay for the way you pay for someone to paint your house or whatever. The two are intentionally commingled to make it all more expensive.
 
Based upon my experience dealing with private insurers and Medicare your contention that without 3rd party payers, health care costs would be more expensive is not the case.

Medicare is a highly efficient health care system. The cost of Medicare is impacted by providing care only to the elderly and chronically ill which is the most expensive cohort. Private insures have the luxury of insuring the least costly cohorts.

Implement a Medicare for all model and the the younger healthier cohort will dramatically reduce the cost of Medicare and give Medicare the leverage to negotiate the absurd cost of health care. Case in point, I will be undergoing an MRI next month which is being billed by the provider for $3600 . My Medicare plan will charge me $120.
1. The original post was thinking about private sector insurance. I was going to add the government into the model in a subsequent post, if people cared. Since you brought it up, though, I guess it's the right time.

2. To start, we have to recognize that Medicare is a third party payer. By your account, it's doing the same thing as the private payers -- negotiating prices and socializing the costs. It's just arguably more effective because it has more power.

3. Is Medicare actually a highly efficient health care system? I haven't paid much attention to it in recent years, so what I know of its finances is dated. It has lower overhead costs. It also has more fraud. Those are related. I don't think "more fraud" necessarily means it's bad; if overhead costs go from 10% to 1% and fraud goes from 1% to 2%, that's arguably a public policy win.

The bigger problem here is that Medicare reimbursements are not really negotiated at all. They are established through the political process, and they have all the elements of government programs that are particularly susceptible to graft and corruption: 1) they are mostly invisible to voters; 2) to the extent that voters know about it, they don't really care; 3) the people affected by the reimbursements are some combination of well-to-do doctors, big corporations and increasingly private equity funds. The latter two groups are absolutely happy to influence the government to bend reimbursement rates to their favor. The first group, maybe less so, but the professional associations do.

4. Like any system of central planning, the problem with Medicare rates is that they can often be out of step with the needs of the market. And unfortunately, those rates can have big long-term effects on the medical profession. I think it was in the 1980s that reimbursements for ophthalmologists were comically high, and ophthalmologists were thus among the most highly compensated doctors. Well, what one would expect to happen did: we got way too many ophthalmologists. If I have the subspeciality wrong, it was a long time ago and I was a kid so my memory on this point won't be great.

More recently (last 15 years), dermatology has been an extremely attractive field for young doctors because of some combination of a) generous reimbursements; and b) people who will pay for cosmetic procedures out of pocket. I remember reading a news story a while back about how dermatology residency programs around the country were being swamped, and everyone -- even the Harvard and Hopkins folks -- were trying to get in on the action.

This is a largely irreversible process. It's not like law, where a lawyer can be an antitrust litigator, and then if antitrust dries up, go into product liability or family court litigation. Once a doctor has done a derm residency, the doctor is a derm. Absent extraordinary circumstances, the doctor will not be able to change specialty. So we're going to have a surplus of dermatologists for many years into the future, and many of our smartest doctors are doing botox instead of curing Alzheimer's or cancer.

5. In my wife's field, psychiatry, reimbursements and compensation have recently gone up quite considerably. That's because there was a shortage of psychiatrists. Supply and demand. But Medicaid reimbursements -- set through the political process -- have lagged. The upshot is that Medicaid kids have trouble finding psychiatric care. My wife's employer only lets her have 10% of her patients on Medicaid. I don't know about Medicare -- she's in a child field and never deals with it.

The point is, the higher reimbursements (it's probably more accurate to say the less-terrible reimbursements) have been bringing more medical students into the psychiatry profession. And psychiatrists -- a subfield that usually sees a lot of outflow to other fields, more than other specialties -- have been staying in the profession longer.

None of this is to say that Medicare is necessarily bad. It's just that there are tradeoffs. Right now, in a hybrid system of reimbursements, there can still be market signals to induce newly entering physicians to choose in-demand fields. Under a Medicare for all system, I would be worried that reimbursement schedules would get ossified, and we'd start having even more distortions. We can't have a system with all anesthesiologists and no surgeons, if you know what I mean.

What do you think? Fair points? Not fair? You probably deal with Medicare reimbursements a lot more than my wife and certainly a lot more than me.
 
Forgive me if this is already addressed as I only read a part of that.

One issue even with insurance is that medical care is so specialized that patients really can’t make informed decisions. They basically have to do what the doctor says. In many cases the doctors don’t even know the costs.

The insurance only jumps in afterward to tell you they aren’t covering the procedure. At that point it is too late for the consumer.

As an example, when my wife was about a week before delivery date there was some sort of problem. I actually don’t remember what it was but the doctors wanted to do an ultrasound. Only after the fact did we realize it wasn’t a normal I ultrasound but a special one that for some unknown reason cost thousands and the insurance didn’t initially cover it. (We fought it and they ultimately did.)

1. We had no idea that this was more involved than a normal ultrasound.
2. We had no idea that even if it was whether it was absolutely necessary and how expensive it would be. (Doubt the doctor knew and we certainly weren’t in a position to debate these things at that moment.)

Insurance doesn’t help with any of that. Only way they could is if they had a representative at the hospital discussing the plan with then doctor. That would be considered problematic to most people.

I don’t know how socialized medicine countries work. I am guessing the medical practices eat the cost of anything they do which is not covered.
 
where you see a health care professional shouldn’t be tied to insurance and should be just a service you pay for the way you pay for someone to paint your house or whatever. The two are intentionally commingled to make it all more expensive.
No, doing that would be far more expensive and it would put health care beyond the reach of most Americans. Plus it is way more expensive to skimp on preventive care (which would happen if people were paying out of pocket) than to socialize the cost.

If you're not really seeing this, I'd encourage you to read the first post.
 
This might be a good time to discuss the role that health insurers play in our health system, and whether they deserve the type of scorn they get. I learned from Paul Krugman the effectiveness of starting with an extremely simple model and then adding constraints, so let's do that.

1. Imagine a world with no health policy. It's just free market, with doctors and patients. How well does that relationship work for patients? Not well. There are two problems that can happen when you go to the doctor:

Doctor: I have bad news for you. You have Bonus Eruptus, a rare disease.
Patient: Oh, that sounds bad. Can I get a second opinion?
Doctor: Sure, but you've got about 12 hours to live without the procedure I can perform on you now
Patient: How much will it cost?
Doctor: All your worldly possessions, save the clothes on your back. Better to be a pauper than dead.

Doctors have the leverage because of their special expertise and because the service they provide can be, in some cases, obscenely valuable.

2. So faced with this market, what would patients do? Well, first, they have to organize together. Individual patients can never exert any leverage while they are potentially dying from lack of care. So we need a company (let's call it Spangle) of some sort that will represent patients, who will pay membership fees to be represented by it in negotiations. And what will Spangle do? First, it will negotiate sensible rates with the doctors. A doctor, after all, doesn't care about the repeat business of the patient who has already been billed "all your worldly possessions," but the repeat business from Spangle's members is certainly important. Thus can Spangle get the doctors to sign contracts that lay out a price schedule in advance, in exchange for the ability to treat Spangle patients.

But reimbursement doesn't fully fix it. You also need limits on what services can be charged. Otherwise, the treatment for Bonus Eruptus will consist of 1000 injections, each of which billed at the reasonable rate of $50 per. We'll be back to the "all worldly possessions" problem unless Spangle reserves the right not to pay for unnecessary treatments.

If Spangle sounds like what we would call a health insurer, that's not by accident! Indeed, this is how the health insurance market developed way back before WWII, and it's why the insurers were, for a very long time, organized as mutuals. At the beginning, they were nothing more than patient advocates that also pooled money to socialize expenses. They were the good guys! Really, they were.

3. So what went wrong? Why do people hate their insurers? Well, first, we need a bit more accurate terminology. Spangle didn't start life as an insurer -- not exactly. There wasn't a whole lot of insurance required in those days, because there wasn't all that much medical care. What patients needed was a centralized payer -- and indeed, that's exactly what Spangle became.

Then Employers got involved. Possibly the worst thing to happen to American health care, at least in the long run, was the special tax treatment provided for employer-paid health benefits. There were good reasons to get employers involved, to some degree. One major problem in any insurance market is self-selection. If insurance is priced at the average amount needed for the insurer to remain solvent, it will be too expensive for some people -- i.e. healthy people who have little risk and thus don't want to pay a lot for insurance. So they will opt out, leaving a smaller, sicker pool of patients seeking insurance. But now some of the people who were willing to pay the old rates are not willing to pay the new rates required by the sicker population. Iterate many times and you get the insurance death spiral, where insurance keeps getting increasingly expensive until it disappears.

The advantage of employer-sponsored health insurance is that employers can deliver large numbers of patients all at once. IIRC, the original health insurance models tended to be negotiated as part of union contracts, and they didn't require patient contributions or co-pays or anything like that. You worked at GM, you got your medical bills paid for. The health payer now gets a mix of healthy and unhealthy employees (esp. when you include family coverage), which reduces its risk, and it has a captive market that it can rely on to keep delivering the patients needed to keep the risk pool manageable.

But the problem with employer sponsored health insurance is familiar to us all: the employer is the buyer but not the user. And the employer doesn't necessarily care very much if patients occasionally get frustrated by the payment setup. After all, most employees are not patients most of the time. And non-patient employees will tend to value more compensation than a better experience in a service they don't use. Also, the no-copay system created very high costs. So co-pays and deductibles started to be imposed.

4. The modern "health insurance" company was born from this arrangement. Our company Spangle had policies that weren't aggressive in paying for care; mostly it just reviewed bills to make sure there weren't any utterly ridiculous charges or treatments. But then a competitor pitches employers on a new approach: being more restrictive in the treatments paid for, and how much they are paid, and thus halve what employers had to pay. It's not hard to see how this is going to work out -- Spangle can't survive unless it also starts clamping down on claims. Everyone has to be like United Health, because otherwise United Health will take their business.

Employers turned Blue Cross/ Blue Shield from a well-liked mutual another faceless corporate villain. But there were no alternatives, because nobody else could deliver huge batches of patients with a high risk diversification. Individual markets were dysfunctional for reasons sketched out above. There's also the potential for government to get involved; we can deal with that in another post or another thread.

5. Anyway, once Blue Cross/Blue Shield stopped being a mutual, and instead became a corporation . . . well, we know how this story ends. Profits and shareholders and all that. But even though the payers are now hated, they still perform an important function. Reimbursement rates and prior approvals are generally good things for patients. Sometimes we hate them, but without them, medical care would be even more expensive than it is now.

And that matters because otherwise we do stupid things like . . . get pissed off at payers who try to limit payments to anesthesiologists. That Anthem policy that has come under fire? That was good for patients! It was bad for some of the most overpaid doctors in the world. And somehow, those doctors managed to enlist populist anger at insurers to protect their bottom line. Hey liberals, you were had! Wake the fuck up! Hey Chris Murphy, BMW dealers all across the country thank you for helping to crush that Anthem policy -- you've helped ensure that their best customers continue to rake in the money and thus continue to buy luxury vehicles.


Now, in fairness, this type of policy change would have been terrible a decade and a half ago. That's because of the way doctors fought back against health payers once they stopped being mutuals: balance billing. When the payers were mutuals and looking out for their members, balance billing was (IIRC) typically prohibited by the reimbursement contracts. But once they became corporations mainly catering to employers . . . . they stopped caring, because their incentives were skewed. The employers would much rather pay $75 per doctor visit, with the doctor having the ability to charge the patient an extra $50, than to pay $90 per visit. Only a handful of patient/employees would suffer, and again most of the workers would enjoy higher pay. Companies that didn't permit balance billing would lose all their business, and again it's easy to see where this is going.

But balance billing is now illegal. And without balance billing, the risks of policies like Anthem's are not borne by patients at all.

6. THUS, IN CONCLUSION:

Health insurers used to be patient advocates. They still perform economic functions that overwhelmingly favor patients. Without third-party payers, health care would be way more expensive than it is now. BUT over time, the insurers became captured by THEIR payers, and they morphed from good guys into some of the more reviled companies anywhere.

BTW, and this is really worth another post if not another thread: these problems are endemic to paying for health care. If we were to go to Medicare For All, we'd have to do a better job of grappling with these issues than Medicare does. Otherwise, costs will grow out of control. And then, I imagine, people might not like Medicare as much as they do now. It's tricky.
On your last paragraph, I would like to see the breakdown of total medical costs by r private insurers vs Medicare.

We are already insuring the old and feeble. A large percentage of lifetime medical costs happens towards the end of life and most of those are already in Medicare.
 
Forgive me if this is already addressed as I only read a part of that.

One issue even with insurance is that medical care is so specialized that patients really can’t make informed decisions. They basically have to do what the doctor says. In many cases the doctors don’t even know the costs.

The insurance only jumps in afterward to tell you they aren’t covering the procedure. At that point it is too late for the consumer.

As an example, when my wife was about a week before delivery date there was some sort of problem. I actually don’t remember what it was but the doctors wanted to do an ultrasound. Only after the fact did we realize it wasn’t a normal I ultrasound but a special one that for some unknown reason cost thousands and the insurance didn’t initially cover it. (We fought it and they ultimately did.)

1. We had no idea that this was more involved than a normal ultrasound.
2. We had no idea that even if it was whether it was absolutely necessary and how expensive it would be. (Doubt the doctor knew and we certainly weren’t in a position to debate these things at that moment.)

Insurance doesn’t help with any of that. Only way they could is if they had a representative at the hospital discussing the plan with then doctor. That would be considered problematic to most people.

I don’t know how socialized medicine countries work. I am guessing the medical practices eat the cost of anything they do which is not covered.
1. That sucks. Yes, providers really need to be more upfront about these things. My wife tells patients if she is recommending a drug (or occasionally a treatment) that might be particularly expensive. Not all providers do that. There should be informed consent laws that require doctors to at least specify that the care being prescribed is not ordinary.

2. "Basically they have to do what the doctor says" is the problem of supplier-induced demand. It's not unique to the medical profession. Lawyers can induce demand all the fucking time. "Oh, yes, we can appeal that decision but it's really important that we first file a motion for reconsideration, then appeal . . . " It's particularly acute in the medical profession though, because people typically value their lives very highly and people deal with doctors way more often than lawyers -- well, most people.

3. The alternative to "only jumps in afterward" is prior approval, which people also hate. Prior approval is a pain in the ass, but it's better than the alternative. Anyway, this is more of a provider problem than an insurance problem, as explained in part in the next point. Keep in mind, also, that some of the worst abuses have been addressed through regulation that likely post-dates your experience. I don't know if they would address the problem exactly (it's not balance billing; I don't know if it counts as a hidden fee), but there is some movement on the general policy front.

4. The "fancy ultrasound" issue is an instance of what I call the "MRI machine" problem. Namely: hospitals want to have the fanciest equipment, because they don't want to have to send patients to another facility (or at least a non-affiliated facility), as the patients might decide to get all their care there. So everyone has an MRI machine, even though the actual demand for MRIs is not nearly high enough to support all those machines. Everyone would be taking a huge bath on their machines, except, what's that? Yes, it's supplier-induced demand to the rescue! If hospitals aren't getting enough utilization of the machines, that's an easy problem to fix: tell the doctors to order MRIs. Or, rather, let the doctors have some ownership in the MRI machine and thus they will be incentivized to use it to max capacity. That's not allowed anymore, btw, but it used to be a big problem.

The Fancy Ultrasound problem, as it is now called, is a tricky one to solve. I don't know of any answers, unless we are going to go to a nationalized hospital system where capacity can be carefully planned. There used to be programs that required hospitals to prove that there was sufficient demand for services like MRIs before bringing new capacity on line, but they didn't work well and were scrapped.

BTW I had a fancy ultrasound at the dentist's office when I had a root canal. I wonder if it's the same fancy machine.
 
On your last paragraph, I would like to see the breakdown of total medical costs by r private insurers vs Medicare.
It's hard to compare apples to apples, because the private insurers are payers for a completely different population than Medicare -- and as you note, the populations have different cost and care profiles.

I would like to see us move to a system where people over 90 years old are given palliative and hospice care, and perhaps assisted suicide if they want, but no expensive life-extending procedures. We end up spending so much money on the last years of life, which are low-quality, and much less on the first years of life, which are far more important from a societal perspective (and an interpersonal one).

And if you recall conversations we've had in the past about giving more votes to young people, either by letting parents cast votes for their kids or lowering the voting age -- well, this exact issue is why those ideas make sense (to the extent they do; I'm not taking a position here). We spend so much money on 90 year olds because 90 year olds vote. We spend much less money on 10 year olds, because 10 year olds don't vote.
 
It's hard to compare apples to apples, because the private insurers are payers for a completely different population than Medicare -- and as you note, the populations have different cost and care profiles.

I would like to see us move to a system where people over 90 years old are given palliative and hospice care, and perhaps assisted suicide if they want, but no expensive life-extending procedures. We end up spending so much money on the last years of life, which are low-quality, and much less on the first years of life, which are far more important from a societal perspective (and an interpersonal one).

And if you recall conversations we've had in the past about giving more votes to young people, either by letting parents cast votes for their kids or lowering the voting age -- well, this exact issue is why those ideas make sense (to the extent they do; I'm not taking a position here). We spend so much money on 90 year olds because 90 year olds vote. We spend much less money on 10 year olds, because 10 year olds don't vote.
10 year olds would vote for candy and coke
 
1. That sucks. Yes, providers really need to be more upfront about these things. My wife tells patients if she is recommending a drug (or occasionally a treatment) that might be particularly expensive. Not all providers do that. There should be informed consent laws that require doctors to at least specify that the care being prescribed is not ordinary.

2. "Basically they have to do what the doctor says" is the problem of supplier-induced demand. It's not unique to the medical profession. Lawyers can induce demand all the fucking time. "Oh, yes, we can appeal that decision but it's really important that we first file a motion for reconsideration, then appeal . . . " It's particularly acute in the medical profession though, because people typically value their lives very highly and people deal with doctors way more often than lawyers -- well, most people.

3. The alternative to "only jumps in afterward" is prior approval, which people also hate. Prior approval is a pain in the ass, but it's better than the alternative. Anyway, this is more of a provider problem than an insurance problem, as explained in part in the next point. Keep in mind, also, that some of the worst abuses have been addressed through regulation that likely post-dates your experience. I don't know if they would address the problem exactly (it's not balance billing; I don't know if it counts as a hidden fee), but there is some movement on the general policy front.

4. The "fancy ultrasound" issue is an instance of what I call the "MRI machine" problem. Namely: hospitals want to have the fanciest equipment, because they don't want to have to send patients to another facility (or at least a non-affiliated facility), as the patients might decide to get all their care there. So everyone has an MRI machine, even though the actual demand for MRIs is not nearly high enough to support all those machines. Everyone would be taking a huge bath on their machines, except, what's that? Yes, it's supplier-induced demand to the rescue! If hospitals aren't getting enough utilization of the machines, that's an easy problem to fix: tell the doctors to order MRIs. Or, rather, let the doctors have some ownership in the MRI machine and thus they will be incentivized to use it to max capacity. That's not allowed anymore, btw, but it used to be a big problem.

The Fancy Ultrasound problem, as it is now called, is a tricky one to solve. I don't know of any answers, unless we are going to go to a nationalized hospital system where capacity can be carefully planned. There used to be programs that required hospitals to prove that there was sufficient demand for services like MRIs before bringing new capacity on line, but they didn't work well and were scrapped.

BTW I had a fancy ultrasound at the dentist's office when I had a root canal. I wonder if it's the same fancy machine.
I don’t even know if it was the machine or what they were doing with it. I know they took measurements that were not done in standard ultrasounds. Everything turned out fine.

Anyway, the problem in my wife’s scenario is that it was presented as a necessity and not something that could be delayed. Prior approval probably wasn’t an option. (Even if it was in emergency situations it isn’t.)

I actually just now remembered more of the story which is even worse. Because of whatever issue my wife was having (maybe blood pressure) the OBGYN sent her to the hospital to get induced. After a while there they said they needed to do the ultrasound. Then they sent us home. My wife was upset because at that point she was ready to get it over with, and the doctor at the hospital admitted that there was “no room at the inn.”

I suspect the ultrasound was a CYA thing they wanted to do before sending her home.
 
I don’t even know if it was the machine or what they were doing with it. I know they took measurements that were not done in standard ultrasounds. Everything turned out fine.

Anyway, the problem in my wife’s scenario is that it was presented as a necessity and not something that could be delayed. Prior approval probably wasn’t an option. (Even if it was in emergency situations it isn’t.)

I actually just now remembered more of the story which is even worse. Because of whatever issue my wife was having (maybe blood pressure) the OBGYN sent her to the hospital to get induced. After a while there they said they needed to do the ultrasound. Then they sent us home. My wife was upset because at that point she was ready to get it over with, and the doctor at the hospital admitted that there was “no room at the inn.”

I suspect the ultrasound was a CYA thing they wanted to do before sending her home.
Well, it sounds as though the system worked in the end. The main cost seems to have been hassle for you, and perhaps anxiety. Neither of those factors should be ignored (anxiety is real!), but they also aren't the worst outcomes.

Some insurers use (or at least used to) hassle as a cost control feature. Think about it: having gone through that experience, will you ever again accept expensive care without checking if insurance covers it? If possible, that is. And so this can be a way for insurers to push back on over-utilization without actually denying anyone care. If they make it unpleasant to receive the care, people will only use it if strictly necessary.

I'm not saying this is a good strategy. I'm just reporting it as fact, and people can make their own judgments. I do think there is something to be said for it. There might be more to say against it. And it wouldn't surprise me if it has fallen out of favor. It would make marketing departments pull their hair out. "Wait, your goal is to make our product as annoying as you can, and to frustrate the consumers as a matter of policy?"
 
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