Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

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donbosco said:
Wonder how Coach Smith would have handled the portal?

One thing is for sure...he would have done it with the most integrity and honesty possible.
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It is an interesting thought experiment if one considers e.g., the context of Sam Gilbert/UCLA and the impact on a sizable part of his career.
 
superrific said:
I disagree. When exactly should HD have told Cadeau that they were planning to move on? Should he have strung Cadeau along, finding a guard and then tell him, "btw you're a backup next year"? What a dick move. HD told Cadeau they were looking for a PG in the portal, at the time that EC could himself enter the portal and find a good landing spot.

Plus, I don't know when the NIL offers are promised exactly, but my guess is that it's before the portal. And so if HD says to EC, "well, you made $500K last year but this year we can only afford $100K" what do you think EC is going to do?
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I'm not saying string him along. I'm saying that the staff had to be aware of the market and the possibilities. It seems like all of the top point guards were gone while we were looking for a center. Knowing that EC was leaving, those searches should have been in parallel and if we didn't already have filters out and know our place in the market, then maybe the better choice was to stay with EC?

It is not changing now, but if our weakness next season is PG and/or EC blows up, it's going to be a bad look for the staff.

As for money none of us really know, but I've read some crazy numbers for our new guard.

Michigan is obviously spending in the portal.
 
UNC didn't force Cadeau to leave.

I think we're in an era where you have to modify how you look at players/their production and talent. It's great to have a stud 5 star freshman that produces (Flagg etc) but I think we're at a point where it's better to have someone like Kyan Evans than an unproven 20 - 40th ranked freshman. You will likely get superior production without the entitlement.

I do like everything the staff has done with the roster, I would have preferred George at PG but the staff otherwise addressed every need and accomplished their stated goals of getting longer/better shooters.

Today the staff is going to essentially choose between a 6'9 sophomore who was a top 40 recruit a year ago and a 6'11 junior who was the 41st rated player 2 years ago. We are stacking talent.

Our post game is going to be reminiscent of Roy's teams, Veesaar/Lubin/Wilson/High/Catchings is a really solid frontline. Really really solid.

Not often that you can return a player the caliber of Trimble, he'll be an excellent leader next year.

You never know what the product will be until it's on the court and they will, of course, need to be coached up (this worries me a bit). If some guys take steps and the coaches do their jobs this could be a top 15 team.
 
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duluoz said:
There are plenty of philosophical and directional questions that are fair game and worthwhile. IMO these have been beaten to death already, but it’s no skin off my nose if you all want to keep beating them. Which clearly many of you want to dwell in that and wring your hands.

But, does your “that is concerning” mean you are privy to insight or perspective on Cadeau that HD isn’t? Or does it mean that you think you understand his program and team chemistry better than he does? Because if the answer to those questions is “no,” then it’s not all that concerning if you trust that HD would do what’s *right* for the program, regardless of win-loss. And if you don’t trust him, and trust yourself to know what’s right for the program instead, based on a wildly incomplete perspective… then you’re overestimating yourself. Or if you think win-loss should be the only driver in program decisions, then sure, be “concerned.”

Regardless, the point I’m making relates to comparing stats or X/O’s roster fit of new or potential players to Cadeau, which I see absolutely no use for. Just like there was no use for comparing anyone against Caleb. A) these weren’t stats-based decisions, and B) these players are the options on the table, and there may not be perfect fits available. But then, Cadeau was clearly not a perfect fit either.

Now if you want to compare character, attitude, chemistry, and leadership attributes — now we’re talking. Because if HD made that decision to usher him out, my money says that’s what he based the decision on. And that’s what HD is trying to upgrade — not assist-to-turnover ratio or some advanced stat.

So to me, no, it’s not concerning at all if HD had nobody lined up. But I value team culture and doing the right thing for the program over win-loss, all day every day. And I trust HD (and trusted Roy, Dean) to have a far better handle on that than I ever could.
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I think you are reading far to much into my post.

First, I don't want to beat these to death. Some of these questions cannot be answered until we see the results of next season.

My concern is purely from the perspective of a fan. I've never in anyway claimed to have any inside knowledge. Never claimed to know more than the coaches. I've never claimed or aluded to anything in your second paragraph.
So, no I'm not overestimating myself. I'm making the conversations that fans make. You are reading fast to much into my post to come up with that paragraph.

I agree with your third paragraph.

For your 4th paragraph, do you have any inside knowledge of why the staff made this decision, or, as I was doing, are you simply making a statement based on your knowledge and opinion? While I do agree with you, it reads like you are making a statement in a similar fashion to what i did. And we see how you responded to my opinion in paragraph two. :cool:

I agree mostly with your last paragraph. But ultimately wins matter. Otherwise we wouldn't be having these discussions.

If the team wins 15 games next year, do you believe that the team culture is going to be the variable that allows him to keep his job?

Just to add, I am not one of the people who want the coach gone. I'm just a spoiled fan that wants to see the level of success that we have grown accustom to. And, I don't see last season as a failure, but I do believe it could have been better. AND, last one I promise, I do understand the importance of culture and chemistry, I'm not saying that only wins matter.
 
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Bigs23 said:
If Catchings comes I think the Heels will have upgraded overall as a team even if the overall talent has not. Much better size and balance.
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It's clear the frontcourt will be better and deeper than last year. But especially if we lose Drake I'll have a hard time saying we definitively upgraded overall. We are really thin on the perimeter, with a lot of guys who will be asked to step up into roles different from what they've done before.
 
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duluoz said:
There are plenty of philosophical and directional questions that are fair game and worthwhile. IMO these have been beaten to death already, but it’s no skin off my nose if you all want to keep beating them. Which clearly many of you want to dwell in that and wring your hands.

But, does your “that is concerning” mean you are privy to insight or perspective on Cadeau that HD isn’t? Or does it mean that you think you understand his program and team chemistry better than he does? Because if the answer to those questions is “no,” then it’s not all that concerning if you trust that HD would do what’s *right* for the program, regardless of win-loss. And if you don’t trust him, and trust yourself to know what’s right for the program instead, based on a wildly incomplete perspective… then you’re overestimating yourself. Or if you think win-loss should be the only driver in program decisions, then sure, be “concerned.”

Regardless, the point I’m making relates to comparing stats or X/O’s roster fit of new or potential players to Cadeau, which I see absolutely no use for. Just like there was no use for comparing anyone against Caleb. A) these weren’t stats-based decisions, and B) these players are the options on the table, and there may not be perfect fits available. But then, Cadeau was clearly not a perfect fit either.

Now if you want to compare character, attitude, chemistry, and leadership attributes — now we’re talking. Because if HD made that decision to usher him out, my money says that’s what he based the decision on. And that’s what HD is trying to upgrade — not assist-to-turnover ratio or some advanced stat.

So to me, no, it’s not concerning at all if HD had nobody lined up. But I value team culture and doing the right thing for the program over win-loss, all day every day. And I trust HD (and trusted Roy, Dean) to have a far better handle on that than I ever could.
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Sorry another and.

I read your post again. Yes, I completely trust that the coaching staff would do what is best for the program, as they see it. If i didn't then I would not support them.

But we will not know how that translates until next season.

He must have had major concerns with EC if he chose to part ways without a replacement lined up.
 
Heelsandeers said:
Who said this? Seems contrary to what a lot of others have said/speculated about the situation
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It's been all over the paid board. I think UNC would have welcomed EC back with some conversations about his style of play/maturity. EC didn't give them the chance. There have been a few claims that the staff knew he wanted to leave mid-January. It was 100% not a unilateral decision by the staff, you can glean that simply from EC's comments about "his decision" to leave.
 
CHAMTRAIN said:
It's been all over the paid board. I think UNC would have welcomed EC back with some conversations about his style of play/maturity. EC didn't give them the chance. There have been a few claims that the staff knew he wanted to leave mid-January. It was 100% not a unilateral decision by the staff, you can glean that simply from EC's comments about "his decision" to leave.
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Uh, Sherrell reported about the meeting, on the paid board.

And cjones expressed his frustration with the way HD handled the meeting.
 
No idea if we what we have gotten so far in the portal means we will be better next year. I just know next year should be a put up or shut up year for Hubert. Miss the tournament or even sliding in as a first four in team should mean he's gone, no ifs ands or buts. Five years is plenty of time to prove yourself.
 
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stankeylegjones said:
Uh, Sherrell reported about the meeting, on the paid board.

And cjones expressed his frustration with the way HD handled the meeting.
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You are right, I think the timing of the reporting had me confused (Sherrell posted meetings were underway and then EC hit the portal an hour later).

From what I've read it was not solely Hubert's decision to send EC packing. Washburn stated that "it's complicated and we'll likely never really know the truth". People stating it here (and holding it against Hubert) are wrong to do so.
 
CHAMTRAIN said:
You are right, I think the timing of the reporting had me confused (Sherrell posted meetings were underway and then EC hit the portal an hour later).

From what I've read it was not solely Hubert's decision to send EC packing. Washburn stated that "it's complicated and we'll likely never really know the truth". People stating it here (and holding it against Hubert) are wrong to do so.
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It's perfectly rational to hold Hubert accountable for EC leaving.

If you think Hubert made the decision to not retain EC, then he should be held accountable for why he decided to jettison from the program a guy he recruited and was responsible for developing.

If you think EC made the decision to leave fairly unilaterally, then HD should be accountable for why an established starter thinks his future is better served elsewhere.

If you think it was some sort of a mutual decision, then HD should be accountable for getting a PG at least as talented/experienced/fit for the team as EC

There can be perfectly wonderful reasons for EC to leave the program in which Hubert would be held "accountable" with a pat on the back and supported for "a job well done". Or the reasons that EC left may not be good and we should not have a positive view of Hubert for creating his exit or not figuring out a way to keep him on the team. But Hubert, as head coach, is paid for his involvement in these decisions and it is perfectly fair for him to be held accountable for what happens.

(Of course, we're all just fans on a message board - except for Rock, of course, who kills it as an insider - so us holding anyone "accountable" mostly comes down to either posts celebrating or complaining about what happens far beyond our control. But the point is that HD is responsible for the players on the team and public praise/criticism is fair game depending on what happens with the overall roster and particular players.)
 
I've been watching some of Kyan Evans games and highlights, and he looks like a really good combo guard. Occasionally his handles and passes seem a little inaccurate or awry, like an overthrow just on a typical cross-court - i'd put that into the category of sloppy i guess.

He seems cool and under control, his shot is a beauty. He seems skinny, but I think has really good potential.

Biggest take away is that I wish we added some Princeton offense wrinkles into our half-court.

ETA - I'm worried about the other guard spot in the backcourt, not this guy. I think people have been hoping for a Coby White to make up for potential Seth Trimble deficiencies, but IMO this guy could be part of a strong backcourt if his running mate is decent too at ball-handling, facilitating, some ability to create own shot.
 
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ZZLPHeels said:
If you are going to reload every single year you need studs every single year. Filling out a new roster each year with 3 stars and D2 players will give you exactly the results that you expect. We’re not Middle Tennessee State. We’re Carolina. If this is what we can expect from Davis moving forward then I don’t see how he retains his job after next season.
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If next season isn't better then he should be gone. I just don't get why he would show Cadeau the door out, if true, without already having a better PG in place. He also lost Jackson, and I am surprised Powell hasn't jumped to the NBA yet. Maybe it will work out, but if the players like Cadeau and Jackson aren't leaving for more money elsewhere, and money isn't a problem with getting transfers, then there's another reason top talent don't want to play here. It's weird that he can get someone like Wilson, but then struggle keeping players like Jackson and Cadeau, and getting other top talent to transfer to UNC.
 
SnoopRob said:
It's perfectly rational to hold Hubert accountable for EC leaving.

If you think Hubert made the decision to not retain EC, then he should be held accountable for why he decided to jettison from the program a guy he recruited and was responsible for developing.

If you think EC made the decision to leave fairly unilaterally, then HD should be accountable for why an established starter thinks his future is better served elsewhere.

If you think it was some sort of a mutual decision, then HD should be accountable for getting a PG at least as talented/experienced/fit for the team as EC

There can be perfectly wonderful reasons for EC to leave the program in which Hubert would be held "accountable" with a pat on the back and supported for "a job well done". Or the reasons that EC left may not be good and we should not have a positive view of Hubert for creating his exit or not figuring out a way to keep him on the team. But Hubert, as head coach, is paid for his involvement in these decisions and it is perfectly fair for him to be held accountable for what happens.

(Of course, we're all just fans on a message board - except for Rock, of course, who kills it as an insider - so us holding anyone "accountable" mostly comes down to either posts celebrating or complaining about what happens far beyond our control. But the point is that HD is responsible for the players on the team and public praise/criticism is fair game depending on what happens with the overall roster and particular players.)
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No issues really with what you are saying but this is the world we live in with the portal. Trimbles are increasingly rare, most kids will leave to $$greener pastures when faced with adversity. EC leaving also games the system a bit, "Hubert" becomes the reason he isn't in the NBA instead of his poor decision making and lack of maturity. We've seen a lot of these types of transfers in college bball the last few years, I expect EC will do well at UM but I doubt he'll look like a different player.

I don't think EC OR our coaching staff should feel they did a good job last year, both performed below UNC expectations.
 
Catchings flight delayed due to weather earlier. Look for slower news about him for those on binocular watch.
 
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