Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

[BillOfRights]

Who is up to the task of creating a better system within this new reality and regulating it? We know it’s not the NCAA.

The NBA?
Congress?
Elon Musk?
Maybe trump will release a big beautiful plan in 2 weeks?

 

[Bigs23]

The NBA?
Congress?
Elon Musk?
Maybe trump will release a big beautiful plan in 2 weeks?

I’d trust Silver and the NBA more than anyone else.

 

[TarSpiel]

Who is up to the task of creating a better system within this new reality and regulating it? We know it’s not the NCAA.

I think the NCAA could do some things that would immediately settle and simplify things. The one thing Justin Jackson was asking for the most is a 1 or 2 transfer rule that limited how often players could switch schools on scholarship. To me, that would have a significant effect on the chaos of the current transfer portal. I don't know the NIL laws well enough to know if it would pass legal muster, but it would definitely force players and agents to take a more long term view of these transfer decisions.

 

[Bigs23]

I think the NCAA could do some things that would immediately settle and simplify things. The one thing Justin Jackson was asking for the most is a 1 or 2 transfer rule that limited how often players could switch schools on scholarship. To me, that would have a significant effect on the chaos of the current transfer portal. I don't know the NIL laws well enough to know if it would pass legal muster, but it would definitely force players and agents to take a more long term view of these transfer decisions.

I don’t think the NCAA has the power to restrict transfers. If they could they would I’d guess.

 

[SnoopRob]

The courts have essentially struck down all transfer and/or eligibility rules that have come before them.

It’s likely that the only way to establish meaningful change is for the players to be considered employees, unionize, & collectively bargain. But I think that neither side is incentivized to do that right now because the players have too much freedom/leverage to want to give it up and the schools are trying to wait out further realignment issues before creating a new structure involving the athletes as employees.

 

[donbosco]

Put these assholes in charge. They are both hated and feared. They’d either get the job done or it would destroy them.

Either outcome would be positive.

 

[Centerpiece]

The fact is, the athletes need to be able to turn pro, sign contracts and get paid as soon as they are able. They should not HAVE to play for a college or wait x number of years before they are “eligible” for the draft.
Do tennis players have to wait? No. Golfers? No. Baseball players. No.
Madison Bumgarner was a millionaire when he walked across the stage at South Caldwell high school to receive his diploma because he’d already been signed by the San Francisco Giants.

The big money sports like football and basketball need to do what baseball does and has done for over a century.

 

[donbosco]

For years I attended and enjoyed Division 3 games a great deal. I am not being sarcastic.

 

[Centerpiece]

For years I attended and enjoyed Division 3 games a great deal. I am not being sarcastic.

High School football/basketball even more enjoyable

 

[BillOfRights]

The fact is, the athletes need to be able to turn pro, sign contracts and get paid as soon as they are able. They should not HAVE to play for a college or wait x number of years before they are “eligible” for the draft.
Do tennis players have to wait? No. Golfers? No. Baseball players. No.
Madison Bumgarner was a millionaire when he walked across the stage at South Caldwell high school to receive his diploma because he’d already been signed by the San Francisco Giants.

The big money sports like football and basketball need to do what baseball does and has done for over a century.

Players can go pro whenever they want. The NBA restricts who can play in their league by agreement of the NBAPA and the owners, but players can go pro in other leagues. The NBA owners don't want to change the system because they don't want to waste millions on unproven players, and the existing players benefit from younger players not taking their jobs.

 

[Bigs23]

The fact is, the athletes need to be able to turn pro, sign contracts and get paid as soon as they are able. They should not HAVE to play for a college or wait x number of years before they are “eligible” for the draft.
Do tennis players have to wait? No. Golfers? No. Baseball players. No.
Madison Bumgarner was a millionaire when he walked across the stage at South Caldwell high school to receive his diploma because he’d already been signed by the San Francisco Giants.

The big money sports like football and basketball need to do what baseball does and has done for over a century.

That only affects a handful of players. There are only so many spots available in the pro leagues.

And while some us fans may not like what’s going on currently there will be no incentive to change it until revenues start to decline for the money makers. As of now there’s no evidence of that happening.

If the money keeps flowing as is it will likely stay as is unless someone can point to missed opportunities to make even more money.

Haves and have nots is not a motivator in a free market system.

I guess the question to ask is if there really is problem beyond not being what we are used to? What’s the damage?

 

[Centerpiece]

That only affects a handful of players. There are only so many spots available in the pro leagues.

And while some us fans may not like what’s going on currently there will be no incentive to change it until revenues start to decline for the money makers. As of now there’s no evidence of that happening.

If the money keeps flowing as is it will likely stay as is unless someone can point to missed opportunities to make even more money.

Haves and have nots is not a motivator in a free market system.

I guess the question to ask is if there really is problem beyond not being what we are used to? What’s the damage?

First: I don’t really have a problem if it stays as it is. I’ve always been a Curt Flood supporter. Pay the damn players and don’t restrict where they can work - unless they willingly signed a contract that says otherwise.
Second:There are only “so many spots available” on MLB rosters too, but that ain’t stopping anybody from signing a pro contract to play the game at 14 years old if they want to. Minor leagues baby. It’s time the NBA and the NFL either a) quit taking advantage of college teams as their “minor leagues” or b) utilize those college teams as legit minor league clubs AND PAY THE DAMN PLAYERS as the minor league pros that they are and quit this charade.
The NFL and NBA need to join the 20th century. They’re only 125 years too late.
Total B.S. that a young player can’t join a pro club until they are x number of years old or wether or not they were in college for 1 year or more. Luka signed on to play pro club ball at 13.
We’ve already discussed Madison.

 

[Bigs23]

First: I don’t really have a problem if it stays as it is. I’ve always been a Curt Flood supporter. Pay the damn players and don’t restrict where they can work - unless they willingly signed a contract that says otherwise.
Second:There are only “so many spots available” on MLB rosters too, but that ain’t stopping anybody from signing a pro contract to play the game at 14 years old if they want to. Minor leagues baby. It’s time the NBA and the NFL either a) quit taking advantage of college teams as their “minor leagues” or b) utilize those college teams as legit minor league clubs AND PAY THE DAMN PLAYERS as the minor league pros that they are and quit this charade.
The NFL and NBA need to join the 20th century. They’re only 125 years too late.
Total B.S. that a young player can’t join a pro club until they are x number of years old or wether or not they were in college for 1 year or more. Luka signed on to play pro club ball at 13.
We’ve already discussed Madison.

Colleges as a de facto minor league is a win/win. Too much money being made for that to go away.

Baseball lends itself better to a minor league system. People will actually pay to watch it and the players make peanuts. There’s also the belief that baseball players need more time to develop.

 

[SnoopRob]

That only affects a handful of players. There are only so many spots available in the pro leagues.

And while some us fans may not like what’s going on currently there will be no incentive to change it until revenues start to decline for the money makers. As of now there’s no evidence of that happening.

If the money keeps flowing as is it will likely stay as is unless someone can point to missed opportunities to make even more money.

Haves and have nots is not a motivator in a free market system.

I guess the question to ask is if there really is problem beyond not being what we are used to? What’s the damage?

There are other reasons for both colleges and players to agree to a better system other than just "declining revenues"...

- More protections for players via employee rights/collective bargaining
- More stability/less chaos
- Ensure "fair" revenue sharing
- Enforceable contracts (for both parties)

The current system isn't sustainable. While the players have nearly all of the leverage at this point, the schools are going to figure out how to contain that leverage via contracts and will muster the collective will to do so rather than continue on the current course. Once the schools show they are willing to enforce contracts and sue players for violating them, there will be a drive from both sides to get more rules/guidelines in place.

It will likely take awhile to get to that point - and I think each side currently has reasons to delay figuring out that system - but what we have now won't last too terribly long due to the current chaos inherent in this version of the system.

 

[SnoopRob]

Colleges as a de facto minor league is a win/win. Too much money being made for that to go away.

Baseball lends itself better to a minor league system. People will actually pay to watch it and the players make peanuts. There’s also the belief that baseball players need more time to develop.

I don't think it's that baseball lends itself to a minor league system any better than does football or basketball, it's that by the time college sports became the enormous enterprise it is today that baseball already had an established minor league system while football/basketball did not, so the college game became the de facto minor leagues for those sports.

I'm guessing that if the baseball minor leagues had not existed before the growth of collegiate sports that college baseball would be much more popular than it is today. Or that if basketball or football had established their own minor leagues by the 1940/50s, then the college versions of those sports would not be nearly as popular as they are today.

 

[donbosco]

I've always wanted to read more about the days of Textile Mill, Industrial, and big-time AAU (worker) basketball. One of the game's earliest white 7-footers chose to play AAU rather than NBA for example

Bob Kurland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[superrific]

I don't think it's that baseball lends itself to a minor league system any better than does football or basketball, it's that by the time college sports became the enormous enterprise it is today that baseball already had an established minor league system while football/basketball did not, so the college game became the de facto minor leagues for those sports.

I'm guessing that if the baseball minor leagues had not existed before the growth of collegiate sports that college baseball would be much more popular than it is today. Or that if basketball or football had established their own minor leagues by the 1940/50s, then the college versions of those sports would not be nearly as popular as they are today.

I'm not sure about the second paragraph but the first is surely right, to at least a first approximation.

Baseball does generally require more development after high school. There are no Lebrons who can go straight from HS to the majors -- or at least a LOT fewer teens who can play. It's a practice-oriented sport, in that innate athletic ability doesn't get you far without reps. So it makes sense that players would focus on development full time rather than academics.

Obviously, though, those considerations only say that baseball needs development -- it doesn't say whether the development needs to be in college or minors (except the academics part which is pretty much moot across all college sports these days).

 

[Icky Mettle]

I've always wanted to read more about the days of Textile Mill, Industrial, and big-time AAU (worker) basketball. One of the game's earliest white 7-footers chose to play AAU rather than NBA for example

Bob Kurland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That’s fascinating. Obviously professional basketball just wasn’t nearly as lucrative back then. George Mikan, who was the same age as Kurland, signed the first “big” professional basketball contract. It was $60K for 5 years ($12K per year). While that was pretty good money for the time— it’s the equivalent of just under $200K today— there were a number of non-sports professions where you could make more. And obviously you cannot play professional basketball forever. Someone like Kurland may have thought, “Sure I can make decent money for the next 10-15 years, but what kind of career will be available for me after that? Who would want to hire someone in their late-30s whose only job experience is playing a game?”

Even the biggest basketball salaries back then weren’t enough to set someone up for the rest of their life by the end of their career. Nowadays some of the top prospects entering college or entering the portal can be set for life after one year if they are wise with their money and invest well.

 

[SnoopRob]

I'm not sure about the second paragraph but the first is surely right, to at least a first approximation.

Baseball does generally require more development after high school. There are no Lebrons who can go straight from HS to the majors -- or at least a LOT fewer teens who can play. It's a practice-oriented sport, in that innate athletic ability doesn't get you far without reps. So it makes sense that players would focus on development full time rather than academics.

Obviously, though, those considerations only say that baseball needs development -- it doesn't say whether the development needs to be in college or minors (except the academics part which is pretty much moot across all college sports these days).

Football needs even more development, both physical and skills-based, than baseball to be prepared for the rigors of the professional game, so the emergence of MiLB vs college football/basketball isn't a player development issue.

College sports (read: college basketball/football) thrived outside of the major cities where pro sports were based, especially outside the northeast where the major cities were located when professional sports initially became popular. Minor league baseball also allowed that sport to thrive outside of major cities, due to the lower cost of running the teams and therefore less attendance needed to make teams viable.

College sports were able to grow larger than MiLB due to their association with colleges and the inherent draw that gave them from folks in those areas. I don't see any reason that college baseball would not have grown at least as successful as MiLB had MiLB not existed and had college baseball become the feeder system to MLB.

 

[superrific]

Football needs even more development, both physical and skills-based, than baseball to be prepared for the rigors of the professional game, so the emergence of MiLB vs college football/basketball isn't a player development issue.

College sports (read: college basketball/football) thrived outside of the major cities where pro sports were based, especially outside the northeast where the major cities were located when professional sports initially became popular. Minor league baseball also allowed that sport to thrive outside of major cities, due to the lower cost of running the teams and therefore less attendance needed to make teams viable.

College sports were able to grow larger than MiLB due to their association with colleges and the inherent draw that gave them from folks in those areas. I don't see any reason that college baseball would not have grown at least as successful as MiLB had MiLB not existed and had college baseball become the feeder system to MLB.

Those are excellent points. Note that I said, "I'm not sure," which I admit can be taken as a polite way of saying "not really" but it wasn't meant that way here. I was saying I really don't know. Likewise, I'm not sure football needs more development -- there are freshmen WRs who can play in the NFL for sure. But anyway, you're right that it's not a compelling explanation.

As for colleges thriving outside urban areas, that's clearly true at least in part. On the other hand, historically urban colleges have been very good at basketball. Not so much these days, but back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, schools like CUNY, St. Johns, the five schools in Philly that Bill Raftery would bring into any commentary he could -- they were strong programs. Depaul used to be very good. But, by the same token, urban schools were either terrible at football or didn't even bother fielding a team.