Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

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Perhaps the university handled it badly because of not knowing if/how to release information without violating woman again, laws, etc., or by allowing him to remain active in the basketball community. However, HD was not forced to allow him back on the team, to represent UNC, yet he put his roster and job above his morals. That is incredibly disappointing.
 
However, HD was not forced to allow him back on the team, to represent UNC, yet he put his roster and job above his morals. That is incredibly disappointing.
Kid made a mistake at age 18. You don't know what happened. Is there any allegation that he touched her in any way that was non-consensual?

I mean, this videotaping stuff is everywhere. Revenge porn is worse and it has been so prolific that both the states and the federal government have been frantically trying to get it under control with various statutes. To me, it's wrong to mete out such punishment to an 18 year old that doesn't get visited upon adults or elected officials.

I mean, we don't know all the details. If he did it as revenge porn, that's one thing. But maybe he was showing off to his friends having a big dick, or maybe his prowess in bed -- which, as a practical matter might have the same effect, but is far different when it comes to intent. HD presumably knows the details.

I find it really hard to reconcile the consensus that "HD is a really good man," with "HD allows a sexual deviant to play for the team." My guess is that he is satisfied that the kid has learned his lesson.

Somehow liberals got so stuck in the "punish wrongdoers" phase that they've forgotten the other important phase: reward those who improve. Especially with an 18 or 19 year old, the goal should be to rehabilitate, not just stigmatize and exile.
 
Kid made a mistake at age 18. You don't know what happened. Is there any allegation that he touched her in any way that was non-consensual?

I mean, this videotaping stuff is everywhere. Revenge porn is worse and it has been so prolific that both the states and the federal government have been frantically trying to get it under control with various statutes. To me, it's wrong to mete out such punishment to an 18 year old that doesn't get visited upon adults or elected officials.

I mean, we don't know all the details. If he did it as revenge porn, that's one thing. But maybe he was showing off to his friends having a big dick, or maybe his prowess in bed -- which, as a practical matter might have the same effect, but is far different when it comes to intent. HD presumably knows the details.

I find it really hard to reconcile the consensus that "HD is a really good man," with "HD allows a sexual deviant to play for the team." My guess is that he is satisfied that the kid has learned his lesson.

Somehow liberals got so stuck in the "punish wrongdoers" phase that they've forgotten the other important phase: reward those who improve. Especially with an 18 or 19 year old, the goal should be to rehabilitate, not just stigmatize and exile.
Liberals?
 
I wrote this on IC (which is a madhouse regarding this)

Personally feel like there are 3 ways we’ve failed
1. he obviously shoulda been dismissed from team for good. Whatever, a clean start is good for all parties
2. By allowing Zayden into the dome, meals, getting shots up at practice and filming it, it can give the impression to the victim you are not taking this seriously and flaunting it- especially when the victim is opting for the lesser non-legal proceeding. Just feels gross to me
3. the article was well researched and asked for comment, so a huge PR failure by hubert and AD by not getting out in front
 
Liberals?
Yes, liberals on matters like this one. You think it was conservatives who were pushing MeToo, who have been calling for stiffer penalties for sex assault, and generally for taking sexual assaults more seriously? It was all liberals. And on campuses, the lack of due process for the accused men was for many years shamefully lacking. It got to the point where law professors who had led the charge at first started saying, "um, this is bad" but by then, nobody was listening to the law professors because a new group of "experts" had emerged: social workers. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but at some point this century, social workers got the idea that they are the real experts. They churn out god awful "research" that they push in "bias training" when nothing they say has any validity at all.

This is all perfectly crystallized in the approach that began, I think, at Michigan State maybe? Some academic hangers-on decided that the research shows that women "freeze" during rape and don't remember what happened. Except the research also shows that women don't freeze during rape and remember everything. So if a woman remembers, the man did it; if a woman doesn't remember, the man did it. I wish I was joking about this, but it really happened.

I would never use the phrase "blue MAGA" because it's inaccurate, but there have long been liberals who get so caught up with the righteousness of their cause that they throw reason out the window. One prominent example of this is RFK Jr. He went loco with his vaccine stuff, but he didn't invent his screeds aimed at pharma. That shit came from a) the granola left; and b) the socialist left, who loathe all things related to corporations.
 
We now live in a society that has rapidly devalued accountability. Nothing and no one is immune.
Half of the society does that. The other half, not really.

Zayden playing ball this year is not a lack of accountability. He already received a stiff punishment. He didn't get suspended for a couple of games, or "indefinitely" which turned out to be (IIRC) one game. He was off the team for a whole year. For a basketball player of his age, that's development time he's missing out on. He was never a likely NBAer, but there are players in the NBA with his recruiting profile. But he lost a year of development and whatever chance he had to play in the NBA is almost certainly gone.
 
Well, I think video-ing someone without their knowledge or consent is pretty bad all on its own, if that's what happened.
And he was punished for it.

We have to remember these kids' backgrounds. How the fuck is a kid supposed to know that videoing someone without their knowledge is really bad, when they see it happening all around them? Hell, how many celebrity sex tapes are out there? Kids probably don't know that Paris Hilton actually released her sex tape herself -- they just know that it was circulating. Hulk Hogan? Was that video consensual?

Are we teaching the kids in school not to do this? We should be. Are we? I have a feeling that it's not being done, because to talk about it is to admit that kids are having sex and that's OK. Which we know that the religious right refuses to do.

I didn't know where he was from, so I looked it up. Texas. Well, of course. Who in Texas was telling Zayden High that's it's wrong to make sex tapes without someone's consent?
 
Kids don't know who Paris Hilton is.
You get the point, but I'm not even sure you're right about that. There's an artist called Scene Queen who I've been listening to recently. She's 25. One of her songs includes the lyrics:

If you're late to class
Then you best eat this ass
Yeah, I'll make you my pet
Get me wet, do it fast
If you want an A
Bite this apple all day
Just Lewinsky'd the desk
Because class is in sesh

Paris Hilton is more recent than Lewinsky.
 
And Childish Gambino has a line "e.e. cummings on her face! Now there's poetry in motion!”

Just because the allusion exists in pop music doesn't mean that the reference is fully understood by all.
 
Kid made a mistake at age 18. You don't know what happened. Is there any allegation that he touched her in any way that was non-consensual?

I mean, this videotaping stuff is everywhere. Revenge porn is worse and it has been so prolific that both the states and the federal government have been frantically trying to get it under control with various statutes. To me, it's wrong to mete out such punishment to an 18 year old that doesn't get visited upon adults or elected officials.

I mean, we don't know all the details. If he did it as revenge porn, that's one thing. But maybe he was showing off to his friends having a big dick, or maybe his prowess in bed -- which, as a practical matter might have the same effect, but is far different when it comes to intent. HD presumably knows the details.
Did you read the N&O article? Because we know a lot more details than we probably should know...

- High filmed the woman in some sort of sexual act with her without her permission
- High denied it when she asked him about until she found the recording on the phone and deleted it
- High admitted to having recorded it by text after she left his room and then stated that "he deleted it" (another copy or meaning it was deleted is unknown)
- High was found "guilty" of the accusation by the UNC process that handles sexual assault cases, including 2 appeals which were denied

There is no grey area to defend Zayden High in this case. What he did was not only illegal, but a terrible action that could have been far worse for both himself and, more importantly, the woman involved had she not figured out what was happening and forced the deletion of the video.

He already received a stiff punishment. He didn't get suspended for a couple of games, or "indefinitely" which turned out to be (IIRC) one game. He was off the team for a whole year.
What is under dispute here is did he actually receive the entire penalty or did the University give him preferential treatment because he's an athlete?

While suspended from school and later on probation (both of which should prohibit his "participation in athletics" by University rules), High is known to have...

- Been given access to the Dean Dome to practice
- Been given access to the "training table" for free meals reserved only for athletes
- Was captured on video shooting around with players while they were at practice

So if he's still allowed a number of the perks of being a student-athlete while his punishment is not being a student and/or an athlete, then the University faces a major accusation that it did not fully carry out the punishment it had given to High and instead provided him preferential treatment due to his status as a basketball player.
 
And he was punished for it.

We have to remember these kids' backgrounds. How the fuck is a kid supposed to know that videoing someone without their knowledge is really bad, when they see it happening all around them? Hell, how many celebrity sex tapes are out there? Kids probably don't know that Paris Hilton actually released her sex tape herself -- they just know that it was circulating. Hulk Hogan? Was that video consensual?

Are we teaching the kids in school not to do this? We should be. Are we? I have a feeling that it's not being done, because to talk about it is to admit that kids are having sex and that's OK. Which we know that the religious right refuses to do.

I didn't know where he was from, so I looked it up. Texas. Well, of course. Who in Texas was telling Zayden High that's it's wrong to make sex tapes without someone's consent?

I dunno, man, if my kid ever did something like that there would be hell to pay. And if he said "I didn't know you shouldn't do something like that" he'd be in twice as much trouble, because he damned well should have known.
 
And he was punished for it.

We have to remember these kids' backgrounds. How the fuck is a kid supposed to know that videoing someone without their knowledge is really bad, when they see it happening all around them? Hell, how many celebrity sex tapes are out there? Kids probably don't know that Paris Hilton actually released her sex tape herself -- they just know that it was circulating. Hulk Hogan? Was that video consensual?

Are we teaching the kids in school not to do this? We should be. Are we? I have a feeling that it's not being done, because to talk about it is to admit that kids are having sex and that's OK. Which we know that the religious right refuses to do.

I didn't know where he was from, so I looked it up. Texas. Well, of course. Who in Texas was telling Zayden High that's it's wrong to make sex tapes without someone's consent?
Are you really arguing that a reasonable 20 year old man doesn't know that it's wrong to record himself committing a sexual act with another person without that person's permission?

What. The. Fuck?
 
Is there any point in reminding you that King Rice also got off with three misdemeanor assault charges after arguably worse behavior? I think he did a good job of rehabbing after Dean gave him a second chance.

Not defending High. He was extremely stupid which in a teenage male means he's young , dumb and full of cum. I'm not Christian but I'm enough of a forgiving nature to not go headhunting for player or coach. It means a lot to me that the sex seems to have been consensual. In my opinion, this not like the thousands of times that women got forced into sex, had their reputations sullied by claims that she was sleeping around or just shunted aside. It has happened in all sports at all level for generations. He may have gotten a slap on the wrist but he got the slap, he bears the guilt and I certainly hope he carries the shame. That's a step in the right direction at least.
 
Yes, liberals on matters like this one. You think it was conservatives who were pushing MeToo, who have been calling for stiffer penalties for sex assault, and generally for taking sexual assaults more seriously? It was all liberals. And on campuses, the lack of due process for the accused men was for many years shamefully lacking. It got to the point where law professors who had led the charge at first started saying, "um, this is bad" but by then, nobody was listening to the law professors because a new group of "experts" had emerged: social workers. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but at some point this century, social workers got the idea that they are the real experts. They churn out god awful "research" that they push in "bias training" when nothing they say has any validity at all.

This is all perfectly crystallized in the approach that began, I think, at Michigan State maybe? Some academic hangers-on decided that the research shows that women "freeze" during rape and don't remember what happened. Except the research also shows that women don't freeze during rape and remember everything. So if a woman remembers, the man did it; if a woman doesn't remember, the man did it. I wish I was joking about this, but it really happened.

I would never use the phrase "blue MAGA" because it's inaccurate, but there have long been liberals who get so caught up with the righteousness of their cause that they throw reason out the window. One prominent example of this is RFK Jr. He went loco with his vaccine stuff, but he didn't invent his screeds aimed at pharma. That shit came from a) the granola left; and b) the socialist left, who loathe all things related to corporations.
I think trying to categorize this politically is a mistake.
 
Being allowed to practice and eat free meals really seems unimportant in the scheme of things
I agree that it can seem unimportant to us or even to the universe within the bigger picture of things.

But to a victim of sexual crime who believed that the University had provided a disciplinary action to the person responsible discovering that the same person continued to receive perks of being an athlete while the punishment included not "participating in athletics", I can see how these seemingly small things can be a huge deal and feel like their situation wasn't handled appropriately.
 
I agree that it can seem unimportant to us or even to the universe within the bigger picture of things.

But to a victim of sexual crime who believed that the University had provided a disciplinary action to the person responsible discovering that the same person continued to receive perks of being an athlete while the punishment included not "participating in athletics", I can see how these seemingly small things can be a huge deal and feel like their situation wasn't handled appropriately.
I don't disagree with you... but in a lot of cases where women come forward they are just "slut shamed" and told their behavior was "asking for it." So at least he was put in a penalty box for a year.
 
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