How Non MAGA Conservatives View Trump

Good one CF.
tell you what, calla, I’m in a deal-making mood. Let’s make a deal: I’ll quit posting on this site forever, right now this moment, if you provide a coherent, sincere, thoughtful, and honest answer to one set of questions.

Why is the government having carte blanche to execute American citizens for simply exercising their constitutional rights not a political red line to you? Why is being forced to surrender every conservative value and principle you’ve ever claimed in order to have to defend someone like Donald Trump worth it? Why are there policy achievements that, for you, outweigh the fact that the president has his own personal force of federal agents who are accountable to no one but him, who are kidnapping American children and killing American citizens? Lastly, why do you start threads on a politics message board if you aren’t willing to engage with people who are (at least initially) attenpting to do so in good faith, and if you’re just going to default to “I can’t discuss this with y’all because reasons”?

Go ahead. Make this one of my very last posts ever on this board. I’d like to go out by finally having you not duck, dodge, or deflect from questions asked of you in good faith.
 
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You have that for CFord but nothing for Ram calling a dead VA nurse "Antifa"? Might want to take a step back yourself and re-evaluate your own observational skills.
You know ram probably came in his pants seeing another murder by his orange God's gestapo.
 
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Your premise is the problem. Multiculturalism does not mean 10 different societies with nothing in common to bind them.
It appears the only problematic cultures have a specific commonality. Why was multiculturalism not a problem and the death knell of the republic when those apparently not assimilating were German, Scotch, English, Swedish, Dutch, French, Irish, etc?
 
Do you think multiculturalism strengthens society. 10 different societies with nothing in common to bind them?
It has so far in America. If you're too fucking historically ignorant to realize the same sorts of hatreds existed between the European nations that were pretty much the equal of the racial hatreds of today ( and the racial hatreds between them in Europe still in places. Talk to the Poles about the Russians, etc. Moving to America where they are sharing land they stole instead of each other's homelands made a big difference in the US.) They have formed a multicultural society that worked pretty well before the the Christofascists started acting up.
 
The Trump supporters on this thread have done a phenomenal job of perfectly illustrating as plain as day how and why a cult of personality can become so sinister and dangerous, and the manner in which Republicans have ceased to center around any particular conservative ideology at all in servitude to that cult of personality. These people don’t even have political ideologies anymore. Maybe they once did. But now their ideology is “whatever Trump says”- even if it directly contradicts the core foundational tenets upon which the entire conservative ideology is built.

The fundamental problem here is they treat politics like sports. There isn’t actually any critical thought behind any of their support, there is no longer any ideological basis behind their support, there is no longer any ideological defense of their support- they just cheer for their team. They’ve spent the last 10 years defending Trump’s every word, his every move, his every policy, even when – especially when – his words and policies directly contradict everything conservatism is supposed to adhere to.

They have made Donald Trump- not conservativism- *the* core piece of their personality. At this point, they literally can’t afford to be wrong about him. It would mean admitting that they spent the last decade of their lives being played, just like everyone (especially the libs!) was telling them the entire time. Most people do not have the strength, courage, or conviction to do so. Many of them don’t care, but some of them do- the two on this thread are a perfect example of the latter. That’s why you see them lashing out at people like me who did find the strength and the intellectual fortitude to say “enough is enough” and leave the Trump madness long ago and begin opposing it with every moral fiber of my being.

As I thought about my own political and ideological evolution over the last decade from my mid 20s into my mid 30s, which spans from initial Trump support to now outright opposition to everything about Trump, I realized that I’ve definitely become more “liberal” in my social views, which does lend itself to aligning with Democrats, but more than anything else it has been an evolution of my own conservatism that has most caused my disgust with Trumpism and those who enable and support it. I still believe in my fundamental classical conservative beliefs in free markets, strong and secure national borders, a powerful military, adherence to the constitution, following the law and being held strictly accountable when it is broken, and everyone paying their fair share. But I also believe now that unfettered and unrestrained capitalism does not work without employee and consumer protections, that you can have strong and secure national borders but also a fair, fast, and efficient system of immigration, that we can have the strongest and most powerful military in the world while simultaneously spending substantially proportionately less than we do on defense, that the constitution should be adhered to as written but that we should be open to amending and clarifying parts of it that were written 250 years ago and perhaps not necessarily applicable to modern day, that we should always harshly punish violent crime but should strive more for rehabilitation instead of retribution for non-violent offenders, and that taxes should be as low as possible but that there should be significantly fewer loopholes that enable the wealthiest among us to pay the least proportionately.

All of the above to say, Trumpism happened because so many of my fellow conservatives were willing to completely abandon conservatism altogether instead of abandoning a man who has never been conservative in the first place. I hope at some point the conservative movement in America is able to regain traction and reestablish itself as a legitimate ideological base – I strongly believe that a healthy and robust conservative movement is vital. But I think that as long as the cult leader remains, there is no hope for a healthy conservativism.
 
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By the way, I spend a considerable amount of time on r/conservative and even a bulk of *those* folks, many of which have been the most loyal and fiercest Trump defenders for a decade, are calling this an unjustified execution of an American citizen by agents of the government. When you lose r/conservative, you are truly in the moral and ideological abyss.
 
By the way, I spend a considerable amount of time on r/conservative and even a bulk of *those* folks, many of which have been the most loyal and fiercest Trump defenders for a decade, are calling this an unjustified execution of an American citizen by agents of the government. When you lose r/conservative, you are truly in the moral and ideological abyss.
Any American should be horrified about loosing an armed rabble with no rules on the general public, citizen or not. In theory, we shouldn't even treat criminals that way without due process. There's not even the exigency of a clear and immediate danger where some shortcuts could even be considered.
 
Any American should be horrified about loosing an armed rabble with no rules on the general public, citizen or not. In theory, we shouldn't even treat criminals that way without due process. There's not even the exigency of a clear and immediate danger where some shortcuts could even be considered.
Couldn’t agree more. Nobody should be subject to execution by the state without due process- not American citizens, not undocumented immigrants, not law abiding individuals, not criminals.
 


I’ll never forget the people who let one raging madman rewrite their entire personality and value system. Watching folks abandon everything they once claimed to believe just to fall in line and excuse the most heinous behavior will be studied for years by psychologists and historians alike.

Donald Trump isn’t just a politician. He’s an infection in the bloodstream of America, and the damage to our national soul is catastrophic.
 
Totally agree with this sentiment, but are there actually any libertarians? They are like the mythical creatures of politics. I’ve never come across someone who claims to be libertarian who doesn’t parrot right wing talking points, vote exclusively for right wing politicians, etc.
 


I’ll never forget the people who let one raging madman rewrite their entire personality and value system. Watching folks abandon everything they once claimed to believe just to fall in line and excuse the most heinous behavior will be studied for years by psychologists and historians alike.

Donald Trump isn’t just a politician. He’s an infection in the bloodstream of America, and the damage to our national soul is catastrophic.

And this is precisely why I say we cannot and should not have policy discussions so long as Trump is in the picture. He precludes anything as mundane as policy.
 
And this is precisely why I say we cannot and should not have policy discussions so long as Trump is in the picture. He precludes anything as mundane as policy.
Yes. The difference between Calla and the rest of us here is that we see Trump as an existential threat to our lives and liberties and he does not. The difference between Ram and the rest of us here is that he gets excited about the thought of liberals in concentration camps. Or body bags.
 
And this is precisely why I say we cannot and should not have policy discussions so long as Trump is in the picture. He precludes anything as mundane as policy.
Agreed. Policy probably should have gone out the window five years ago when the mob attacked the U.S. Capitol to try to impede the certification of election results. It absolutely, positively, unequivocally should go out the window now that the president has a masked, unaccountable personal private police force that is executing mothers and ICU nurses in the street.

I know others on this board disagree with on this, and that’s fine, but I truly believe that if there is any small semblance of hope of restoring some pre-Trumpian modicum of decency to America, it’s going to require a hell of a lot less discussion about egg prices and a hell of a lot more discussion about ensuring that the people responsible for lawless state sponsored executions rot underneath prison cells.
 
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