How Non MAGA Conservatives View Trump
- Thread starter Callatoroy
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NATO has set us aside. They no longer count on us for leadership. The members have literally said as much. So that's not hyperbolic. What else in my post do you think is hyperbolic?
The Rupublican party is dead. It is a cult of personality worshiping an authoritarian populist who acts above the law to move our country backwards and make our country and the world less safe and less prosperous
Callatoroy
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Im not going to speak for trump, but EVERY trump voter I know, most especially me, wants to see this country continue the path of what made this country great. Your characterization omits all nuance of what that is though. We still attract the best and the brightest as it relates to 2026 geopolitics. In fact, I want a merit based immigration system that focuses heavily on the best and brightest. But that isn’t what was happening under Biden. That completely contradicts your assertion that trump voters hate America.
Diversity wasnt a part of what made America great as you stated. It was diversity with assimilation. Without assimilation diversity by itself can become problematic, as Europe’s is finding out. Mass immigration makes assimilation difficult. In my opinion the left doesn’t want to focus on the assimilation part which is where much of the disagreements over immigration come from.
IOW, they aren't basically Northern Europeans. Fuck a bunch of racists. I tried to think better of you all but you just won't let me. You're all driven by hate for people who don't suck up to white Christians.
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If what you say is true, then why are you guys supportive of the creation of the president’s own personal secret police that is going around rounding up our crop pickers, meat packers, construction workers, busboys, housecleaners, landscapers, and service industry workers? Those are all people without whom our economy and our “American dream” doesn’t function.
Callatoroy
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NATO cant set us aside. We are still the security. I know what France and Canada said, but reality is Europe’s has to have us. Not intended to insult you, but I know you are smarter than that. We are most definitely still the unquestioned leader in nato.
ChileG
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I agree. And it’s so funny that it is passed off as good reasons to vote for an authoritarian maniac.
Ever see the Seinfeld episode where George tries to pick up a girl in a bar by telling her he writes sitcoms? Her reaction to him and non-MAGA reaction to that article are pretty much the same. We are not impressed.
Having the most guns makes Trump and his toadies bullies but they are unquestionably not the leaders. Europe is publicly separating itself from the US. The ideological drivers of NATO are not American. Do you not read outside of your bubble?
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With all due respect, I don’t think you have a good understanding of the level of technological sophistication and strength of western European militaries if you think that NATO couldn’t set the United States aside if push came to absolute shove.
Callatoroy
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My suggestion is don’t waste your time responding to any post i make. If you see my comments in anyway racist then you and I should have no further dialogue and I won’t respond to any more of your posts as there is no reason to engage with anyone who labels people as racist for disagreeing on a topic as broad and nuanced as immigration. Based on your comments any country in the world that restricts free movement is racist. I can’t relate to that and won’t try.
Callatoroy
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Extensively. Sometimes, when faced with the geopolitics of 2026, ideology and reality clash. And when one of the partners is, and has been carrying the load, stopping to reevaluate is occasionally wise. Don’t get confused by thinking the way that is happening is the wisest way, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen.
Callatoroy
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Heels on TV. Go Heels
The entire history of immigration is about keeping non white non Christians out. The only change is that now Catholic countries in Southern Europe grudgingly count as okay. There's no nuance to that. What's the last law conservatives supported that didn't improve the lot of well to do white Christians at others expense?
You're the one who needs to take a long look in the mirror and recognize what an absolutely stench in the nose of your God and your Constitution your principles are.
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What gooblygoop is this?
LeoBloom
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Exactly.
superrific
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Calla, would you like objectivity? Here's some objectivity:
1. Trump is doing what he said he would do. He usually keeps his promises when it comes to specifics. The problem is that the promises themselves are horrible, and you spent much of 2024 denying that he would do what he has done.
2. If we are just blinded by Trump Derangement, then how come we almost perfectly predicted what he would do? Everything he has done, are things we said he would do and they have had the effect we predicted. Some of it varies in the specifics: I knew he was going to shit on one of our neighbors, but I thought it would be Mexico, not Canada. Greenland was not the way I expected him to undermine NATO, but we all knew he was going to do just that.
3. The problem here is that you've been listening for 30 years to people who tell you over and over that liberals are stupid, that we are just sold out to identity politics, we hate America, blah blah blah. For your side of the aisle, "that's liberal" has been considered an acceptable comeback to any claim, any theory, any prognostication. But of course, the reality is that most educated people, these days, are liberals. It's your side who made that happen.
So smart people tell you how the world works, and instead you listen to stupid people who don't know shit but you credit them because they are on your team.
4. Again, this is not a both-sides issue. I don't have the same reflexive hatred for conservatism as you do for liberalism. I do have a reflexive hatred for MAGA because I have seen enough to know everything about MAGA is just stupid. They almost never do the right thing. There are a couple of exceptions: I liked Trump's move to require more transparency in medical billing. I will give him credit, even though I suspect it had bad motives.
For instance, I have said for a long time, and many, many times, that the greatest environmental regulation in our history was passed during Bush 41: The Clean Air Act Amendments of 1991. They created the cap and trade system. At the time, progressives were aghast at the idea, because they thought it was a passive acceptance of smog levels. And it could have been that, but what happened instead was that the cap-and-trade system allowed for extremely cost-efficient reductions and so we could afford more reductions (and they were implemented -- more than anyone thought possible).
So what you see as a liberal issue (cap and trade) is anything but. It was a conservative idea that liberals embraced after it was shown to work. Go up and down the federal register and you will see the same. It was Reagan who originally signed the order requiring all regulations to pass cost benefit analysis at OMB. Every president since has renewed the order, because it was a good idea.
The same is true for Bush 43's HIV initiative, which has been praised pretty much everywhere. If he hadn't authored the horrid Iraq catastrophe and presided over the financial crisis, HIV could have been his legacy.
1. Trump is doing what he said he would do. He usually keeps his promises when it comes to specifics. The problem is that the promises themselves are horrible, and you spent much of 2024 denying that he would do what he has done.
2. If we are just blinded by Trump Derangement, then how come we almost perfectly predicted what he would do? Everything he has done, are things we said he would do and they have had the effect we predicted. Some of it varies in the specifics: I knew he was going to shit on one of our neighbors, but I thought it would be Mexico, not Canada. Greenland was not the way I expected him to undermine NATO, but we all knew he was going to do just that.
3. The problem here is that you've been listening for 30 years to people who tell you over and over that liberals are stupid, that we are just sold out to identity politics, we hate America, blah blah blah. For your side of the aisle, "that's liberal" has been considered an acceptable comeback to any claim, any theory, any prognostication. But of course, the reality is that most educated people, these days, are liberals. It's your side who made that happen.
So smart people tell you how the world works, and instead you listen to stupid people who don't know shit but you credit them because they are on your team.
4. Again, this is not a both-sides issue. I don't have the same reflexive hatred for conservatism as you do for liberalism. I do have a reflexive hatred for MAGA because I have seen enough to know everything about MAGA is just stupid. They almost never do the right thing. There are a couple of exceptions: I liked Trump's move to require more transparency in medical billing. I will give him credit, even though I suspect it had bad motives.
For instance, I have said for a long time, and many, many times, that the greatest environmental regulation in our history was passed during Bush 41: The Clean Air Act Amendments of 1991. They created the cap and trade system. At the time, progressives were aghast at the idea, because they thought it was a passive acceptance of smog levels. And it could have been that, but what happened instead was that the cap-and-trade system allowed for extremely cost-efficient reductions and so we could afford more reductions (and they were implemented -- more than anyone thought possible).
So what you see as a liberal issue (cap and trade) is anything but. It was a conservative idea that liberals embraced after it was shown to work. Go up and down the federal register and you will see the same. It was Reagan who originally signed the order requiring all regulations to pass cost benefit analysis at OMB. Every president since has renewed the order, because it was a good idea.
The same is true for Bush 43's HIV initiative, which has been praised pretty much everywhere. If he hadn't authored the horrid Iraq catastrophe and presided over the financial crisis, HIV could have been his legacy.
Captain Bo Sides
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SMDH, you would have to be practically non verbal not to "be able to articulate" such a poorly written and fallacious load of tripe.
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It is absolutely about Trump. Trump himself has made the entire United States of America all about Donald Trump. You and I are his fiefdom. He does not have policy. He has persona. Donald Trump is the US at this point. We are no better as a nation than he is as an individual because his aim (readily enabled by the excuse makers) is to mold us into precisely that.
A policy discussion cannot be had where Trump is involved because he is so far beyond the acceptable range of humanity that it precludes all policy discussion.