Hubert Davis and politics

[Centerpiece]

Folks are not mad at Davis because of race.

Davis has missed the tournament twice in 4 years.

He missed the tournament with a team of Davis, Love, Black, Bacot, Nance, Trimble and Washington. That’s stunning

This year we have a top HS guard (Cadeau), a first team AA (Davis), top 10 recruits (Jackson and Powell) and undersized bigs but still experienced bigs. He did that in the worst ACC ever.

The offense is stagnant and unwatchable.

Then don't watch. Pretty simple stuff.

 

[mpaer]

In my life of fandom Carolina has been to 20 Final fours So I feel cool.
Now if I want to I can consider that if my lifetime Carolina has likely lost more Final Four games than any other team.

 

[Centerpiece]

In my life of fandom Carolina has been to 20 Final fours So I feel cool.
Now if I want to I can consider that if my lifetime Carolina has likely lost more Final Four games than any other team.

UNC is 19-17 in final four games. A winning record.
However a couple of those games may have been in the consolation round, back when we had that. I’ll bet most of the youngsters on this board don’t even realize we used to play a consolation game in the final four.

 

[altmin]

In my life of fandom Carolina has been to 20 Final fours So I feel cool.
Now if I want to I can consider that if my lifetime Carolina has likely lost more Final Four games than any other team.

FWIW 257 teams have never made the final 4. Something like 35 teams have never been in the NCAA tournament at all

 

[PTOHeel]

Another reason to want to give HD another year is to see how things go with the hiring of the new GM. I recognize that HD’s back is against the wall and next year needs to be successful for him to continue. I think that means consistent top 25 team all year. If not, he’s gone.

I disagree that there will be any media outrage if he’s let go after next season. There has already been chatter about his status this year. And if things don’t go well next season, the writing will be on the wall.

 

[finesse]

Folks are not mad at Davis because of race.

Davis has missed the tournament twice in 4 years.

He missed the tournament with a team of Davis, Love, Black, Bacot, Nance, Trimble and Washington. That’s stunning

This year we have a top HS guard (Cadeau), a first team AA (Davis), top 10 recruits (Jackson and Powell) and undersized bigs but still experienced bigs. He did that in the worst ACC ever.

The offense is stagnant and unwatchable.

Out of all those players, how many will ever be an NBA regular? My guess is Powell and Jackson.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

I posted elsewhere on the board recently that I would think being consistently ranked in the Top 20 (especially in the latter half of the season), finishing in the Top 2 or 3 of the ACC in the regular season, and making some noise in the NCAA tourney (say, at least a Sweet Sixteen appearance) is a reasonable expectation for next year given UNC's history and tradition. Miss the NCAA tournament and/or lose double-digit games again and he's gone at the end of the year and he should be, imo. And if he does have a bad season and is let go I agree with PTOHeel that there won't be much outrage, even in the national media, because there are already plenty of stories this year about him being on the hot seat, and some pundits have been critical of his performance. There may some articles criticizing his firing, but if he has another year like this one I think most sports media stories will actually just play up why he's getting fired, imo.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

Out of all those players, how many will ever be an NBA regular? My guess is Powell and Jackson.

Who cares? The last title team we had didn’t have 1.

 

[circlesky88]

If he misses the tournament this year, probable but not set in stone yet, and again next year that would make misses 3 out of 5 years. Five years is a reasonable time frame to judge a coach. He would be fired. Would there be outrage because Hubert is black? I'm sure that would come up. If we had hired Wes Miller and he missed the tournament 3 out of five years and was then fired would there be outrage?

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

FWIW 257 teams have never made the final 4. Something like 35 teams have never been in the NCAA tournament at all

Oh man. We are at the stage where we are just happy to be better than others.

 

[finesse]

Who cares? The last title team we had didn’t have 1.

If you don't care, then don't list them like they highlight Hubert's failure to produce. Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

If you don't care, then don't list them like they highlight Hubert's failure to produce. Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.

I talked about what kids had done in high school and college. The reference was to how they performed in the NBA.

 

[SnoopRob]

I'll state my position up front: I am for relieving HD of the HC position even if we sneak into the tournament tomorrow evening. We've been a bubble team 3 of his 4 years as HC, we've been unranked in the AP Top 25 more weeks than we've been ranked during his tenure (and our normal trajectory is to start the year ranked and then fairly quickly slide out), and we repeatedly have issues with strategy & slows starts despite having more talent than most teams we play. I understand that he's almost certain to be back next year, as it is obvious that my opinion carries less than a feather's weight in the real decision-making process.

I understand some of the opposition to HD is racial. Unfortunately, that is still a part of our society. I do not think it is a motivating factor for the majority of folks who would like to see us move in a different direction.

I can see that Hubert's outspoken faith may lead some to wish him removed from the role. But it's a significant portion of his support in many, many multiples than the number it causes to want him out of the job.

I don't think that his race would be a major part of the story if he is eventually relieved of his position as HC. Unfortunately, under HD we've clearly been below the standard set for Carolina Basketball over the last 60 years and that will be the main story. I also don't think that there will be significant blowback from the coaching community or from current players/recruits in CBB, for the same reason. I do anticipate significant issues with discontent from former players, especially those who were at Carolina while HD has been on staff here. However, I don't think you can let that be a determining factor once it's been determined that the best course of action is to move on.

Assuming HD is back next year, the sports media will be aware that he's likely "coaching for his job" barring a very, very surprising end to this season. If Carolina again fails to meet a reasonable standard, then I don't think there will be much outcry (except from some former players) if he is relieved of his position.

I think the bigger controversial point will be what is a "reasonable standard" that HD must meet next year to keep his job. The AD will be very, very unlikely to provide a public statement of what it takes for HD to be retained and I don't think there will be much agreement among the fan base. Where next year has the potential to turn very, very ugly is if Carolina has a season next year that shows some moderate improvement, but still below the historical norms of Carolina Basketball.

 

[mpaer]

I'll state my position up front: I am for relieving HD of the HC position even if we sneak into the tournament tomorrow evening. We've been a bubble team 3 of his 4 years as HC, we've been unranked in the AP Top 25 more weeks than we've been ranked during his tenure (and our normal trajectory is to start the year ranked and then fairly quickly slide out), and we repeatedly have issues with strategy & slows starts despite having more talent than most teams we play. I understand that he's almost certain to be back next year, as it is obvious that my opinion carries less than a feather's weight in the real decision-making process.

I understand some of the opposition to HD is racial. Unfortunately, that is still a part of our society. I do not think it is a motivating factor for the majority of folks who would like to see us move in a different direction.

I can see that Hubert's outspoken faith may lead some to wish him removed from the role. But it's a significant portion of his support in many, many multiples than the number it causes to want him out of the job.

I don't think that his race would be a major part of the story if he is eventually relieved of his position as HC. Unfortunately, under HD we've clearly been below the standard set for Carolina Basketball over the last 60 years and that will be the main story. I also don't think that there will be significant blowback from the coaching community or from current players/recruits in CBB, for the same reason. I do anticipate significant issues with discontent from former players, especially those who were at Carolina while HD has been on staff here. However, I don't think you can let that be a determining factor once it's been determined that the best course of action is to move on.

Assuming HD is back next year, the sports media will be aware that he's likely "coaching for his job" barring a very, very surprising end to this season. If Carolina again fails to meet a reasonable standard, then I don't think there will be much outcry (except from some former players) if he is relieved of his position.

I think the bigger controversial point will be what is a "reasonable standard" that HD must meet next year to keep his job. The AD will be very, very unlikely to provide a public statement of what it takes for HD to be retained and I don't think there will be much agreement among the fan base. Where next year has the potential to turn very, very ugly is if Carolina has a season next year that shows some moderate improvement, but still below the historical norms of Carolina Basketball.

I am a Carolina Way , glass half full etc etc kind of guy
I want to have a new coach in a month And oh BTW I was estatic when we hired Coach Davis

 

[Ramrouser]

Carolina should never be a bubble team so 3 out of his 4 years on the bubble is straight up unacceptable.

 

[OGtruthhurts]

no one knows if he's a great guy. lots of people thought ted bundy was a great guy.

as with most so-called Christians religion its nothing but a veil to hide behind

 

[superrific]

1. I think the initial opposition to Hubert was in large measure about race. I get it -- no head coaching experience, etc. But the anti-Hubert crowd and the MAGA crowd on the old boards overlapped considerably.

Now I do not think that opposition to HD is really about race. I mean, it still is for the MAGAs, but there are strong race-neutral arguments for firing him. I don't know if I agree with those arguments, and there are strong arguments the other way, which I also don't know if I agree with -- but it seems clear to me that he's in the hotseat because of the outcomes, not his race.

2. The reality, I think, is that the coach matters less than people think. Scheyer in Derm underachieved with his players even worse than we did. Until this year. It turns out that having the best player in the country, along with two or three other lottery picks, is a key to being successful.

Last year Hurley was a world-beating coach, the best in the business. This year, UConn is #34 in kenpom, right behind UNC at #33. It turns out that having a couple of top 10 picks on your roster along with two high quality fifth year seniors in the backcourt is a key to being successful. It appears that Castle is going to be ROY in the NBA this year, or at least first team all rookie. He was UConn's third best player.

3. For all those who complain about HD's offense, it's also true that he's been saddled with a bunch of low-IQ players his entire time here. I have seen nothing from Withers that would lead me to believe he could effectively function in a more complex system. HD brought him in, knowing that his mental acuity was an issue; I suppose we can put that on HD's recruiting. But Caleb wasn't his fault -- another low-IQ player who had trouble buying into any system. EC makes a lot of dumb plays too.

4. I think what we need is a set of expectations from our coach -- sort of the way owners in the NBA can set down organizational policies that they expect the coach and GM to adhere to. The best teams in the NBA have a plan. This should be ours (it's not novel):

A. One non-shooter on the roster total. I suppose we could maybe exempt the center position (maybe) because perimeter oriented 5s are still fairly rare. But otherwise, everyone on the roster 1-4 has to be able to shoot well from outside. We can have a Trimble or an EC but not both. A Hans or a Deon, but not both. Not in today's game.

B. Also, no reliance on "he will develop a shot." For whatever reason, UNC has been terrible at developing shooters for . . . well, as long as I can remember. As great as Dean was in developing players, shooting was not his forte. We had too many guys come in as non-shooters and leave as non-shooters. Derrick Phelps, Brian Reese, King Rice, Ed Cota are a few names that come to mind under Dean. We all know the names under Roy. I can think of Shammond and Kenny Smith as guys who really improved their jumpers while at UNC. Maybe Kendall, in that he went from a guy you didn't have to guard outside to a guy who wasn't going to knock down shots but couldn't be left wide open.

The portal should mean that we don't need to take chances any more. Get guys from the portal who can shoot. Recruit guys who can shoot. No more guys who are effective without being able to shoot, or who will learn or will grow into their shots. No more.

C. No more reclassing. Flagg reclassed and it didn't hurt him at all, but he would have been the #1 draft pick last year, so he was very far ahead of the curve. But the senior season in high school is developmentally valuable -- especially for guys who maybe have never needed an outside shot but sure could benefit from them at the next level.

Now, maybe there are more examples of successful reclasses than I can think of right now, but I can think of a lot of top guys who weren't successful in college after reclassing. Duke had a string of PGs who reclassed, weren't very good, and then dumped after one season. One of them was Duval. I don't remember the others. GG Jackson. I would not consider EC to have been a successful college player at this point. And while injuries to guys like J Washington aren't about reclassing, they also show the developmental advantages of that senior season.

Of course, it depends on what the players are doing in their senior season. If HD told EC, "nah, stay in high school to develop your game," the next sentence should be, "and you should be focusing on your jump shot. You can get by guys and get to the rim. Don't. Or not nearly as much. Shoot." If the players are just going to do the same things they have been doing, I guess it's not that helpful. But that needs to be a conversation.

 

[WaynetheDrain]

Folks are not mad at Davis because of race.

This isn't exactly true. I'd say the broad majority of posters on IC are angry at the results, but there are some that have inserted race into it. I've seen a few posts over the years blaming "DEI" for Hubert being hired. Those folks are clearly using the race angle as a derogatory reason for Hubert's struggles.

 

[SnoopRob]

1. I think the initial opposition to Hubert was in large measure about race. I get it -- no head coaching experience, etc. But the anti-Hubert crowd and the MAGA crowd on the old boards overlapped considerably.

I completely disagree.

Carolina Basketball through the end of Roy's tenure had had a top 5 (at worst) CBB for 54 of the previous 60 years (not counting 3 years each for coaches Guthridge and Doherty).

Carolina Basketball is, as worst, a top 3 program all-time in CBB and has the ability to attract a top-notch coach.

The initial opposition to Hubert was largely because we hired someone with no head coaching experience following no real coaching search. For most of us who opposed Hubert initially, the common refrain was that Carolina Basketball should not be an on-the-job training position and instead we should be seeking the best coach we can get. The backlash was accentuated by the fact that we've previously hired a "Carolina guy" with very little HC experience before in Doherty and we all know how that turned out.

I also think that most folks who opposed HD's hiring largely got on board once it was official and there was no other choice but to hope he'd be successful. I think there may have been some folks who never actually supported HD (and those folks are more likely motivated by non-basketball reasons), but the majority of those who didn't support HD before his hire gave it a fair chance, which is indicative that their opposition was basketball-related.

Also, Hubert has a lot of support from MAGA folks to this day. If opposition to Hubert's hiring was ever driven by race, you'd expect there to be a clear delination of support based on political factors.

 

[superrific]

I completely disagree.

Carolina Basketball through the end of Roy's tenure had had a top 5 (at worst) CBB for 54 of the previous 60 years (not counting 3 years each for coaches Guthridge and Doherty).

Carolina Basketball is, as worst, a top 3 program all-time in CBB and has the ability to attract a top-notch coach.

The initial opposition to Hubert was largely because we hired someone with no head coaching experience following no real coaching search. For most of us who opposed Hubert initially, the common refrain was that Carolina Basketball should not be an on-the-job training position and instead we should be seeking the best coach we can get. The backlash was accentuated by the fact that we've previously hired a "Carolina guy" with very little HC experience before in Doherty and we all know how that turned out.

I also think that most folks who opposed HD's hiring largely got on board once it was official and there was no other choice but to hope he'd be successful. I think there may have been some folks who never actually supported HD (and those folks are more likely motivated by non-basketball reasons), but the majority of those who didn't support HD before his hire gave it a fair chance, which is indicative that their opposition was basketball-related.

Also, Hubert has a lot of support from MAGA folks to this day. If opposition to Hubert's hiring was ever driven by race, you'd expect there to be a clear delination of support based on political factors.

All right. If you say so. I don't know very much about this.