Hubert Davis Catch-all

[lightbluenc]

What is the Carolina Way to you guys? What are the core underpinnings?

-Player first
-Team over individual
-win with dignity
-accountability, learn from your mistakes
-student-athlete (the order matters)

To me, the Carolina Way or moreso, Dean Smith way, is innovation as well. Finding small advantages ingame or in pre game planning where our players have higher game awareness or “IQ” than other teams. We haven’t had that in the Davis era imo. We might not be fully had that with Roy either but our player awareness was still higher under Roy too.

We don’t do the little things as well as we used to. Small intangible things that stack to get Ws.

 

[donbosco]

What is the Carolina Way to you guys? What are the core underpinnings?

-Player first
-Team over individual
-win with dignity
-accountability, learn from your mistakes
-student-athlete (the order matters)

I think that student-athlete is part of "Player first."

I also think personal integrity and responsibility are important things that players and coaching staff must be dedicated to -- and yes, I know that we've had players for whom that was a sketchy proposition. We have one now -- I saw the post addressing High's issues and the redemption angle btw. I'm also aware that players did things in the past, back to Coach Smith's time, that were also suspect (though as I understand it the vast majority of the things I've come to know were not known at the time by Coach Smith).

 

[CRHeel94]

They're definitely related, but I do think they are two different components.

Player first to me describes the way Coach Smith treated his players and the emphasis he put on developing an integral relationship with them. Coach Smith was always about putting his players before him. He would always try to promote the players instead of himself. And everyone in the program had that mission objective clear. So player first is the commitment the program has to the player.

IMHO, the student-athlete is part of the commitment that the player has to the university. Being at Carolina, you have to make sure you fulfill the academic side of the equation to have the privilege to play for the tea,. The program will help you be successful, but you (the player) need to put the work in to be successful. That is the commitment of the player to the program.

 

[donbosco]

They're definitely related, but I do think they are two different components.

Player first to me describes the way Coach Smith treated his players and the emphasis he put on developing an integral relationship with them. Coach Smith was always about putting his players before him. He would always try to promote the players instead of himself. And everyone in the program had that mission objective clear. So player first is the commitment the program has to the player.

IMHO, the student-athlete is part of the commitment that the player has to the university. Being at Carolina, you have to make sure you fulfill the academic side of the equation to have the privilege to play for the tea,. The program will help you be successful, but you (the player) need to put the work in to be successful. That is the commitment of the player to the program.

I don't think we're in disagreement on anything but some very fine points here.

 

[Icky Mettle]

Different time and place. The average NBA salary in 1970 was 35,000 dollars (worth roughly 250,000 now) with 13-15,000 as the minimum. A college education from UNC was, long term, very desirable for the future. There's just too much money in the game for that to ever have the same meaning or influence.

Veering off topic, but that made me think of Bob Kurland, one of the first great big men in basketball. He certainly could have played basketball professionally, but he opted for a career as a salesman for Phillips Petroleum instead (he ended up climbing the corporate ladder there). It was more lucrative than playing professional basketball.

 

[finesse]

Veering off topic, but that made me think of Bob Kurland, one of the first great big men in basketball. He certainly could have played basketball professionally, but he opted for a career as a salesman for Phillips Petroleum instead (he ended up climbing the corporate ladder there). It was more lucrative than playing professional basketball.

It was routine for players in all the sports to have off season jobs, even stars. Ted Williams had the best gig. He was a big outdoorsman and had a line of sporting goods with Sears he endorsed and put his name on.

 

[stankeylegjones]

Dixon-Trimble-Wilson-Veesaar starting lineup played 6 full games together start to finish. SIX. Number 7 was the Miami game. The season was effectively over just as it was getting off the ground

Early season Seth get hurts, Evans doesn’t contribute much, but you find something in Dixon. That dynamic alone played out over a full month. By the time UVA and duke come around the rotation is pretty much set

Offensively things are starting to look good. The defense is still a WIP but looking better. Laughable and low bball-iq to think the snapshot of this team in January is what it was going to look like through February and March

It's not like Dixon was hurt though. Maybe he wasn't ready to take over for Evans until then, maybe he was. Surely HD knew better seeing them both in practices daily. The issue was the massive misevaluation on Evans by the staff, after not being able to land a point guard.

I think it's low bball-iq to only focus on starting and not minutes played and when those minutes are played (not saying you are a low bball-iq person, at all). The mpg flipped for Dixon and Evans during the Cal game, while Dixon had already been playing more in "crunch time" than Evans before then. Looking at their Torvik rating from the Cal - Miami game, a time when the team was at full strength, it was 28th. That is not the signs of a team that was playing at the level of a top 10 team, nor a serious contender for the final weekend, nor a team that could challenge for any kind of title (to tie back into to my definition of success).

One might think that maybe if you simply jump forward a few weeks then those metrics would improve considerably. If you fast-forward two weeks, looking at the team from the stretch GT - Miami, their T-rank is 22nd. Still not playing like a team that could compete with the better teams.

Edit: Their BARTHAG ranking during Cal - Miami is 44th, while from GT - Miami is 30th.

 

[rodoheel]

Dixon-Trimble-Wilson-Veesaar starting lineup played 6 full games together start to finish. SIX. Number 7 was the Miami game. The season was effectively over just as it was getting off the ground

Early season Seth get hurts, Evans doesn’t contribute much, but you find something in Dixon. That dynamic alone played out over a full month. By the time UVA and duke come around the rotation is pretty much set

Offensively things are starting to look good. The defense is still a WIP but looking better. Laughable and low bball-iq to think the snapshot of this team in January is what it was going to look like through February and March

Also somewhat presumptuous to look at a small sample size of games in the middle of the season and think it means we were destined for contention if Caleb didn’t get hurt.

 

[donbosco]

Veering off topic, but that made me think of Bob Kurland, one of the first great big men in basketball. He certainly could have played basketball professionally, but he opted for a career as a salesman for Phillips Petroleum instead (he ended up climbing the corporate ladder there). It was more lucrative than playing professional basketball.

And he won two Olympic Gold Medals along the way -- was flag bearer in 1952 (Biggest ever?).

I know I'll never forgive him for leading Oklahoma A&M over UNC for the 1946 National Championship. Bones McKinney always hated him for that. To be fair, Hook Dillon held up pretty well in that game.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

And he won two Olympic Gold Medals along the way -- was flag bearer in 1952 (Biggest ever?).

I know I'll never forgive him for leading Oklahoma A&M over UNC for the 1946 National Championship. Bones McKinney always hated him for that. To be fair, Hook Dillon held up pretty well in that game.

That seemed like a pretty close game - UNC only lost to A&M by 3 points, 43 to 40. If memory serves, I believe that UNC is the only men's college basketball program that has been to at least one Final Four in every full decade of the NCAA Tournament's existence. And thanks to our appearance in 2022 that record will continue into the next decade. That's an impressive record to hold.

 

[Icky Mettle]

That seemed like a pretty close game - UNC only lost to A&M by 3 points, 43 to 40. If memory serves, I believe that UNC is the only men's college basketball program that has been to at least one Final Four in every full decade of the NCAA Tournament's existence. And thanks to our appearance in 2022 that record will continue into the next decade. That's an impressive record to hold.

Once in the 1940s.
Once in the 1950s.
Three times in the 1960s.
Twice in the 1970s.
Twice in the 1980s.
Five times in the 1990s
Four times in the 2000s.
Twice in the 2010s.
Once so far in the 2020s.

 

[LeoBloom]

Dead as we know it. And dead in the way that made UNC unique.

I disagree. But that’s me. It doesn’t have to be.

 

[StrangePackage]

It's rough to see Jalen Washington and Eliot Cadeau still playing

 

[Bigs23]

I disagree. But that’s me. It doesn’t have to be.

I think that era is all but dead.

 

[duluoz]

To me, the Carolina Way or moreso, Dean Smith way, is innovation as well. Finding small advantages ingame or in pre game planning where our players have higher game awareness or “IQ” than other teams. We haven’t had that in the Davis era imo. We might not be fully had that with Roy either but our player awareness was still higher under Roy too.

We don’t do the little things as well as we used to. Small intangible things that stack to get Ws.

Hmm. Depends on what you mean by the little things and “advantages.” The flopping and baiting scourge brought into the game by dook sure gave them advantages, and some call it “high IQ” but there’s nothing “Carolina Way” about it IMO.

It’s a big part of why I wasn’t sad to see Cadeau go. I didn’t care how good he could’ve been potentially. I don’t miss him and his sneaky little bs moves. He’s still doing the same crap at Michigan. Good for them and their fans if they approve.

 

[LeoBloom]

I think that era is all but dead.

The Dean Smith way spanned from when freshmen weren’t eligible, from when only the conference tournament winner made the NCAA tournament, to when players could leave early; from no shot clock to shot clocks and a three point line; from basically regional only tv deals to billion dollar deals with CBS. It can continue. And, imo, it can continue with a coach who didn’t play for UNC but does hold the same values.

 

[Heelsandeers]

It's not like Dixon was hurt though. Maybe he wasn't ready to take over for Evans until then, maybe he was. Surely HD knew better seeing them both in practices daily.

The why isn’t important in this discussion. I think HD handled the situation the correct way

Idk how much Dixon was expected to play coming into the season but it wasn’t starter mins

The issue was the massive misevaluation on Evans by the staff, after not being able to land a point guard.

I agree

I think it's low bball-iq to only focus on starting and not minutes played and when those minutes are played (not saying you are a low bball-iq person, at all). The mpg flipped for Dixon and Evans during the Cal game, while Dixon had already been playing more in "crunch time" than Evans before then. Looking at their Torvik rating from the Cal - Miami game, a time when the team was at full strength, it was 28th. That is not the signs of a team that was playing at the level of a top 10 team, nor a serious contender for the final weekend, nor a team that could challenge for any kind of title (to tie back into to my definition of success).

One might think that maybe if you simply jump forward a few weeks then those metrics would improve considerably. If you fast-forward two weeks, looking at the team from the stretch GT - Miami, their T-rank is 22nd. Still not playing like a team that could compete with the better teams.

Edit: Their BARTHAG ranking during Cal - Miami is 44th, while from GT - Miami is 30th.

Dixon was playing 15 mpg at the start of ACC play through the Stanford game

He wasn’t logging major mins until moving into the starting line up. He saw big mins before that only vs Kentucky, Gtown, Ohio St, and Upstate

In any case, he’s a 4-star freshman thrust into playing one of the toughest positions in college basketball. Of course he is going to be inconsistent, struggle, improve

Yes it is reasonable to expect a team showing signs of improvement to continue to do so

 

[rodoheel]

It's rough to see Jalen Washington and Eliot Cadeau still playing

Where would this team rank right now, I wonder?

PG: Elliott Cadeau
SG: Ian Jackson
SF: Cade Tyson/Tyler Nickel
PF: Ven Allen Lubin
C: Jalen Washington/James Okonkwo

It may not really work for some of the same reasons some similar combinations didn't really work here. But honestly, assuming you could find some guard depth somewhere (too bad D'Marco Dunn is out of eligibility), that team is probably top 20 if they all play the way they're playing for their current teams. Most of those guys are playing significant roles for NCAAT teams, or in Tyson's case starring for a more mediocre team. (Okonkwo's team sucks, though.) I wonder how many other programs could currently make that sort of team out of guys who have transferred away from their program?

 

[rodoheel]

And, imo, it can continue with a coach who didn’t play for UNC but does hold the same values.

This is the thing for me. Some people seem to assume that having a coach who isn't a preexisting part of the "family" means we're giving up everything we stand for. I don't see why it has to be that way.

 

[Heelsandeers]

Also somewhat presumptuous to look at a small sample size of games in the middle of the season and think it means we were destined for contention if Caleb didn’t get hurt.

Well, I never claimed they were destined for contention

Capable of beating anyone? Elite 8 or final 4 with a little luck? Absolutely