Hubert Davis Catch-all

[superrific]

And IMO to think otherwise is either bending the very likely reality so far, in service of your argument… or it’s fundamentally misunderstanding these men in the first place.

IMO there is no way someone can understand who Dean and Roy are, and appreciate their immense experience, and also suggest HD’s results to this point would have them preferring a move in another direction. Or even the lazy claim of “it’s impossible to know.”

And that’s not to say they could never get to that point of preferring a move, based on results heading in the wrong direction or something clearly detrimental to the culture— this is not about having blinders on. It’s simply to say that they would not likely be anywhere near that point, based on having observed them over decades.

How closely did you observe them? Like press conferences? Post-game statements?

You don't actually know what Dean and Roy think. You don't even know them. You are drawing convenient inferences based on nothing. I'm not a "fire HD" guy at all, but I am a champion of intellectual honesty. It is intellectually dishonest, as stankey said, to create an unverifiable appeal to dubious authority.

I mean, who cares what Dean thinks? I got a message from Jesus. He can't believe how far UNC basketball has fallen. Can you believe it? I swear, I know what Jesus would think. From observation.

Do you see how risible your position is?

 

[superrific]

One of Coach Smith's core values was loyalty. And he loved Hubert.

He did criticize Doherty during his tenure, but only because Doherty had some steps along the way that went against the Carolina Way. The first major misstep for Doherty was letting go of the longtime secretaries.

Well, loyalty was giving the program to Gut and it turned out badly. So maybe loyalty was a weakness, not a strength. Or maybe the "loyalty" has been exaggerated. Did he oppose forcing Gut out? It seemed like he was reaching out to Roy while Gut was still coaching, in anticipation of needing a replacement. Is that loyal?

The point is that people can value "loyalty" in the abstract, without relying on "loyalty" to make complex decisions that do not easily boil down to moral narratives.

You don't think Dean would be loyal to the basketball program? That he might worry that HD is trashing what took so long to build? I mean, I don't know. That's the point, nobody knows. You can't just draw conclusions about what someone might think about a specific event based on vaguely defined values that don't fit cleanly onto the situation.

 

[superrific]

It is also unfair to suggest that disagreement means someone misunderstands these men. That move shuts down debate by declaring one interpretation morally or historically correct. In reality, reasonable fans can value continuity, culture, and family ties while also questioning performance and trajectory. Those are not mutually exclusive concerns.

Yeah, some of our posters are basically venturing into the intellectual terrain of biblical literalism or fundamentalism.

 

[Enigma94]

I agree with those who say that it’s largely irrelevant what Dean or Roy might think, but I also think it’s pretty obvious that Roy at least supports Davis. Arguing that we can’t know is dubious imo, but again I do think the argument that HD’s record will speak for itself without trying to complicate it with what Dean Smith may or may not have wanted is correct.

 

[Calheel]

Yeah, some of our posters are basically venturing into the intellectual terrain of biblical literalism or fundamentalism.

I think the argument could be better phrased in terms of values; ie Dean valued loyalty and doing things right on and off the court. And then arguing that firing Hubert would be inconsistent with his values or, better yet, the program’s values.

That is a much more defensible position than confidently declaring what Dean would think about Hubert today.

 

[duluoz]

How closely did you observe them? Like press conferences? Post-game statements?

You don't actually know what Dean and Roy think. You don't even know them. You are drawing convenient inferences based on nothing. I'm not a "fire HD" guy at all, but I am a champion of intellectual honesty. It is intellectually dishonest, as stankey said, to create an unverifiable appeal to dubious authority.

I mean, who cares what Dean thinks? I got a message from Jesus. He can't believe how far UNC basketball has fallen. Can you believe it? I swear, I know what Jesus would think. From observation.

Do you see how risible your position is?

Haha wow, did you lift this view of the program and its leadership from the pages of The Carolina Way?



(pssst, that’s a reference to a book of life lessons, by the way, by Dean Smith… the guy it’s apparently impossible to know much about how he thinks, according to you guys)

 

[SnoopRob]

I mean, who cares what Dean thinks? I got a message from Jesus. He can't believe how far UNC basketball has fallen. Can you believe it? I swear, I know what Jesus would think. From observation.

Do you see how risible your position is?

You could make a pretty good Holy Trinity analogy with Dean, Roy, & HD as the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit of Carolina Basketball.

 

[superrific]

Haha wow, did you lift this view of the program and its leadership from the pages of The Carolina Way?
(pssst, that’s a reference to a book of life lessons, by the way, by Dean Smith… the guy it’s apparently impossible to know much about how he thinks, according to you guys)

The bible is also a book of life lessons. Should we make decisions about, say, gay marriage or nuclear defense based on it?

 

[mpaer]

I swear some of the most Vitriol back and forths on this Board are about freaking Basketball
Maybe we should ban sports discussions

 

[farce©]

You have different standard. Took dean 20 years to win first title. I see growth as coach. I do.

The first 14 years of Dean's tenure, a team had to win the ACC tournament to even get a bid to the Big Dance. If we were to compare Hubert's first five years using the same criteria Dean worked under, UNC would not have made the tourney under HD. Making the tournament was much tougher task back then so it's not a fair comparison (not really fair to Dean or Hubert to discuss it in those terms.)

 

[heel79]

The first 14 years of Dean's tenure, a team had to win the ACC tournament to even get a bid to the Big Dance. If we were to compare Hubert's first five years using the same criteria Dean worked under, UNC would not have made the tourney under HD. Making the tournament was much tougher task back then so it's not a fair comparison (not really fair to Dean or Hubert to discuss it in those terms.)

Fair point..also during that time, including first 3 FF for dean, you were in final 16 when you made tourney. So after winning acc you had to win two games to get to FF. Also, there is just way more parity today than then as their is so much talent. Dean IMO is the greatest basketball mind of all time. My point is there are incredible variables beyond a coach's control that affects outcomes, seasons. Including, apparently, fighting over a girl.

ETA: the only reason I invoked dean is apparently some are willing to explicitly say Hubert's problem is he isn't dean or Roy, or standard they set. I think that is unfair. The acc tournament in late 60s was basically the round of 64 and 32 now.

 

[duluoz]

That's the point, nobody knows. You can't just draw conclusions about what someone might think about a specific event based on vaguely defined values that don't fit cleanly onto the situation.

Like I said before — we don’t know for sure who MLK would’ve voted for in the last presidential election, but we can hazard a half-decent guess. But it sounds as if you’d disagree.

Hey, whatever the HD-haters need to tell themselves to paper over the thought that rightfully makes them squirm — that they are in opposition to the legendary figures who built the program. Thankfully that’s not something I need to reconcile, or it would make me squirm too.

But if you’re truthfully (and not just for the sake of supporting your position here) not informing decisions or shaping your thoughts in life by seeking guidance from role models and leaders who are no longer with us, because “you can’t talk to them and can’t possibly know” and therefore it would not be statistically relevant or viable, since it can’t be “cleanly applied…” then that’s a comically grim spreadsheet-dependent approach to life, IMO. I see that as something not so akin to The Carolina Way, and perhaps even directly contradicting it.

 

[superrific]

Like I said before — we don’t know for sure who MLK would’ve voted for in the last presidential election, but we can hazard a half-decent guess. But it sounds as if you’d disagree.

Hey, whatever the HD-haters need to tell themselves to paper over the thought that rightfully makes them squirm — that they are in opposition to the legendary figures who built the program. Thankfully that’s not something I need to reconcile, or it would make me squirm too.

But if you’re truthfully (and not just for the sake of supporting your position here) not informing decisions or shaping your thoughts in life by seeking guidance from role models and leaders who are no longer with us, because “you can’t talk to them and can’t possibly know” and therefore it would not be statistically relevant or viable, since it can’t be “cleanly applied…” then that’s a comically grim spreadsheet-dependent approach to life, IMO. I see that as something not so akin to The Carolina Way, and perhaps even directly contradicting it.

The MLK example doesn't help you at all.

Look, I don't have any objection with you seeking guidance from role models. That's fine. It's the absurd certainty you have about specific situations that is the problem. I mean, I wouldn't think on this thread, we'd have to talk about ideas like "every text requires interpretation." Is that going to be necessary? Or that no person worth listening to can ever condense their entire mind, values and judgments into a single book?

As stated before, the problem here is that invoking Dean makes the discussion go nowhere. You say, "Dean would do this." Someone else says, "no he wouldn't." The result would be a UNC basketball version of Sunni-Shi'a. Count me out.

 

[4thgenheel]

Well, loyalty was giving the program to Gut and it turned out badly. So maybe loyalty was a weakness, not a strength. Or maybe the "loyalty" has been exaggerated. Did he oppose forcing Gut out? It seemed like he was reaching out to Roy while Gut was still coaching, in anticipation of needing a replacement. Is that loyal?

The point is that people can value "loyalty" in the abstract, without relying on "loyalty" to make complex decisions that do not easily boil down to moral narratives.

You don't think Dean would be loyal to the basketball program? That he might worry that HD is trashing what took so long to build? I mean, I don't know. That's the point, nobody knows. You can't just draw conclusions about what someone might think about a specific event based on vaguely defined values that don't fit cleanly onto the situation.

yeah, this. i was waiting for someone to bring up dean giving the program over to guthridge, which was an irresponsible mistake.

 

[Calheel]

Like I said before — we don’t know for sure who MLK would’ve voted for in the last presidential election, but we can hazard a half-decent guess. But it sounds as if you’d disagree.

Hey, whatever the HD-haters need to tell themselves to paper over the thought that rightfully makes them squirm — that they are in opposition to the legendary figures who built the program. Thankfully that’s not something I need to reconcile, or it would make me squirm too.

But if you’re truthfully (and not just for the sake of supporting your position here) not informing decisions or shaping your thoughts in life by seeking guidance from role models and leaders who are no longer with us, because “you can’t talk to them and can’t possibly know” and therefore it would not be statistically relevant or viable, since it can’t be “cleanly applied…” then that’s a comically grim spreadsheet-dependent approach to life, IMO. I see that as something not so akin to The Carolina Way, and perhaps even directly contradicting it.

You know someone who would probably agree with me and Super on this point?

Dean Smith.

 

[superrific]

You know someone who would probably agree with me and Super on this point?

Dean Smith.

And it begins. We had the Doh wars. I didn't anticipate the Dean wars.

 

[SnoopRob]

And it begins. We had the Doh wars. I didn't anticipate the Dean wars.

The 2nd Dean Wars. The first were in the early to mid 60s.

 

[SnoopRob]

yeah, this. i was waiting for someone to bring up dean giving the program over to guthridge, which was an irresponsible mistake.

Given that Coach Gut was going to be inherently time-limited by age and Dean was (at the time) assured he had the next coach already lined after Gut, I think that was less "an irresponsible mistake" and more "a complicated situation" that was fairly believed would work out perfectly fine in the long run. Of course, Gut/Roy certainly made it interesting for a little while by not following the plan.

 

[Calheel]

And it begins. We had the Doh wars. I didn't anticipate the Dean wars.

Dean didn't want the Student Activities Center named after him; he had to be convinced to accept it.

As long as we are allowed to step into Dean's head and confidently opine what he would think, I am confident he would recoil at @heel79's WWDD (and probably think it is a bit sacrilegious) and he certainly wouldn't want people opining on HD based on how he would approach the problem. That absolutely wasn't his style.

See how easy this stupid game is?

 

[superrific]

Dean didn't want the Student Activities Center named after him; he had to be convinced to accept it.

As long as we are allowed to step into Dean's head and confidently opine what he would think, I am confident he would recoil at @heel79's WWDD (and probably think it is a bit sacrilegious) and he certainly wouldn't want people opining on HD based on how he would approach the problem. That absolutely wasn't his style.

See how easy this stupid game is?

Yes, that was my point. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was saying it will go nowhere